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Fatally Disappointed--The Thread I never wanted to write.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by The Electric Me, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    No evidence of a Customer First philosophy in action.

    Some of you may know me as something of a Prius Chat regular. My discovery of Prius Chat and The Prius actually started nearly 4 years ago.
    I took my time getting a Prius. But finally about 5 months ago purchased “My” Prius.

    I would say, The Prius did not disappoint me. Despite my years of Prius Chat experience I was still impressed by the Prius, even if it’s performance wasn’t a surprise. I found my Prius to be absolutely the quietest vehicle I have ever owned, along with providing the benefits of Hybrid Synergy Drive. To me The Prius was efficient, quiet, comfortable and utilizable. A great vehicle. I was very happy, with The Prius and my purchase.

    But you might notice that I am regrettably using past tense.

    About 4-6 weeks ago I was washing my Prius (By Hand) as I have been doing every week, or at least every two weeks since I had purchased it, when I noticed some small “rust colored” spots. Since I had been washing the vehicle on a weekly basis, I knew the spots were NOT on the vehicle just a week earlier. Even though the spots did not appear to be coming off with simple washing, my initial reaction was NOT to panic. I did what I think many owners would do, I checked the internet for possible definition and ideas as to how to approach the problem. This included the usual and cursory Prius Chat search function.

    The closest definition I could find online that seemed to potentially match my symptoms was “Rail Dust” and the simplest and most recommended approach for remedy seemed to be clay barring. I went to my local department store and bought a Meguiars Clay Bar kit.

    Not wanting to do anything that could potentially jeopardize warranty coverage, I very carefully attempted to remove simple one spot, in one area. Just to see if it would work, before jumping all in. Whatever these spots were, they seemed either under the clear coat, or so imbedded in the clear coat that Clay Bar was having absolutely ZERO impact. By the way, if you feel the surface of the clear coat, above the spots, it feels perfectly smooth, there is no bump or feeling of something that has eaten or imbedded itself.

    Now believing this wasn’t a problem that could be fixed easily or by myself, I escalated the action to the next level which was to return the vehicle to the dealership. The first step they had me take, was to have the vehicle “inspected” at the body shop they evidently use. The results of their initial inspection was their bodyshop employee exclaiming that he had “ Never seen anything like this” and he thought only it could possible be a defect in the metallic flake of the paint itself.

    I personally think this definition is in error. As the spots also appear on the bumper (plastic) and I believe also the spoiler (plastic and NOT painted with the same paint ). But that was the initial definition.

    I returned home as supposedly The Body Shop and The Dealership Service Adviser were going to touch bases and formulate a plan or “next step”. A few days passed and I heard nothing. This is when I thought it might be wise to simply start a official case with Toyota through their Customer Experience process. I wasn’t mad at the dealership, but I just felt an official case and documentation might get the ball rolling a little faster. So I made the phone call and was assigned an big official sounding number, a Customer Relations contact at the dealership, as well as being “assured” that Toyota wanted me to remain a happy customer.

    Now the process reset to an extent. With the dealership customer relations person, also assuring me that they would get my vehicle looking good again. But now, I had to wait for the Toyota “Factory Rep” who had to evaluate the spots. He wasn’t available for two weeks. So I patiently waited for the big appointment day.

    The day arrives. The factory rep, The customer service rep, and someone who I believe was the owner of the body shop (not the same person who looked at it before) all in attendance, as well as myself. The factory rep looks at the vehicle. Long story short, his definition was that he thought the spots were “Rail Dust” and that “We don’t want to repaint it, if we don’t have to” and that the best approach would be something he called an “Acid Wash”.

    I wasn’t particularly happy that my effectively brand new Prius, beautiful except for the spots…spread out over the vehicle sparsely in most cases…a few clusters- was going to have to be exposed to something called an “acid wash”. BUT I was happy that Toyota seemed to be supporting me by covering these actions under warranty. And I was optimistic that the action would lead to remedy. The vehicle would have to be kept for a couple days…I would be given a rental vehicle. This is all being covered under warranty.

    So I proceed. I believe the vehicle was kept for 4 days before I heard back from the dealership. The customer service rep calls me to inform me that not 1 but 3 acids wash’s were done and the spots still remained. Then I’m told, that without my consent, nor with me present a “second” inspection was done, and allegedly ( I never saw this) “a spot” was discovered on the plastic piece they put on the vehicles as a final detail. The plastic piece they put on along the door edges to protect them. And that NOW because of the discovery of that spot on that plastic piece the definition of what has happened to my vehicle was being changed. From Rail Dust…and being covered by warranty…to “unknown industrial fallout” and NOT being covered by warranty.-- My only recourse or path to remedy would be to have the vehicle repainted on my dime.

    Now listen, I know owning a new vehicle doesn’t insulate you from any and all bad things that can happen to your vehicle. And I really have no idea how the spots got on my vehicle. I admitted all along that when I took delivery the spots weren’t there, and that there clearly was a point when I discovered them. My vehicle is parked outside and it IS my vehicle. I drive it to work daily. But I can honestly say, there was no incident that the vehicle was exposed, that I knowingly believe would of caused it to pick up any fall out. Since I was washing my vehicle weekly, I know that upon discovery, they hadn’t been present for any longer than a week.

    I was never asking for something for nothing here. I was always proceeding at every step hoping not only for remedy but also support from Toyota. When the factory rep made the diagnosis of Rail Dust, and then the vehicle was taken and a process for remedy began, my belief was that Toyota was backing their product, and supporting their customer. I wasn’t happy about what “had” to be done, but I was happy that Toyota seemingly was supporting me.

    Upon being told that now because of an inspection that happened AFTER the acid washes failed, the definition of this being covered under warranty was being changed to NOT being covered under warranty I once again called Toyota Customer Experience gave them my case number and communicated my concerns. I was told my case would be escalated and that I’d be contacted within 24 hours. The now beginning to sound hollow, Toyota values you and wants you to be happy spiel.

    So again I wait. With the optimism that because Toyota seemingly took responsibility for the problem and with knowledge of Toyota’s reputation of putting Customers First that even if the dealership was balking, Toyota would offer me some level of remedy. I will admit I was contacted promptly the next day.

    This is where I become very disappointed and disillusioned with Toyota. A company I have respected for decades. I talk to the “Case Manager” who does nothing but parrot back exactly what the dealership had told me. That is that because of the failure of the acid wash‘s, and because of the ( I never witnessed it) the second inspection the definition of my problem was being changed and now the spots were NOT covered under warranty. And basically it was…I’m on my own.

    What bothers me most about this, is the redefinition of the problem as the process unfolded. And Toyota’s and The Dealerships seeming abandonment of the issue when it became obviously difficult or bottom line, potentially expensive to deal with. Seems to me that when the stakes became repainting the vehicle or replacing the vehicle, then suddenly the definition was changed and my value as a customer and Toyota owner became ZERO.
    I’m not really blaming individuals here. Even though I’m VERY disappointed in how I was treated and handled by Toyota Customer Experience, which it seemed to me turned out to be nothing more than a façade operation not designed to support the customer or owner. When the case manager talked to me, it was clear a decision had ALREADY been made, based on- of course -the dealerships presentation of the situation. My communication or feelings were met with simply a parroted script, which was basically that my problem was now being defined as non-warrantable. And absolutely no assistance or further remedy was offered.

    My feeling is that since I’ve gotten several different definitions of the problem ranging from Rail Dust…to “Never Seen This Before”. And that to me it seems the spots are emanating from below the clear coat, despite the mysterious discovery of a spot on the plastic door guard piece, that at the very least, my problem is a gray area. Even as of today, nobody has really offered a definitive definition of what these spots are…or how they manifested. It simply has gone from Fall Out defined as Rail Dust…and being supported by Toyota….to it’s “Unknown Industrial/Environmental Fall Out” and NOT covered by warranty and disappointingly abandonment by Toyota concerning the issue.

    Listen, had Toyota and the factory Rep initially looked at the vehicle and determined that it was an issue they weren’t going to try to remedy or take responsibility for? I would have had to accept that reality. Or at least that would have been the knowledge from the start. What bothers me most today, is Toyota’s seeming taking responsibility for the problem and then from my perspective, doing a secret and covert “Second Inspection” without me present…and then redefinition of the whole problem. I don’t think it’s right for Toyota to change definition mid process of remedy, and only once the remedy is discovered to be possibly difficult or expensive.

    I’m now left with my Prius having been “Acid Washed” evidently 3 times. (Which doesn’t make me feel good about what that process might of done to the finish). The spots still exist. I’m left with a nearly brand new car that displays spots that (even though I do not believe they are) they look like rust.

    And I really don’t know what to do. I’ve lost confidence in the vehicle finish. I’ve lost confidence in Toyota. The final word today was basically…..not our problem…good luck with that.

    Maybe I’m more disappointed than I should be, if only because I’ve so long been a fan of Prius, and Toyota. I’ve participated here for years. I’ve watched the videos on Toyota’s history, and their proclamations of Quality and Customer First Philosophy. At every step in this process I simply believed Toyota would assist me to remedy. They appeared to be doing so, then IMO pulled the rug out from under me. To be honest, there is no way I would of agreed to have my vehicle acid washed 3 times…if we were not- I thought- on a path to TOTAL remedy. I really have to wonder if the finish hasn’t been further compromised by so much exposure to “acid wash’s”. Today, I’m at a point where I can’t see how I’ll ever again feel good about the vehicle I liked so much. And I’m very disappointed and disillusioned by a company I fully expected to be supportive and at least consistent in their customer service.

    What really hurts is voicing all this concern to Toyota and only getting “Not Warrantable” have a nice day in response. To me? If the problem was NOT going to be covered under warranty no process of remedy should of ever been started or offered under warranty. Once you start the process, that should be IMO a commitment to the customer that you are going to reach remedy.

    I know this is a long, long post. I doubt many will read it. It’s more just a rambling numbness as my Prius dream becomes a nightmare. After todays events, I’m really just numb. Not sure what I should do, or can do.

    I’m just not the type of person that would ignore the spots. Nor do I believe I should. I may just let some time pass before evidently ALONE and with no support from Toyota, I decide what to do with my Triple Acid Washed Spotted Toyota.

    If you’ve read this far…take a break and thank you
     
    Prieth, ophealial, rsb97080 and 3 others like this.
  2. Les_PL

    Les_PL Active Member

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    Did you check with your neighbours whether similar symptoms occurs on different vehicles? What kind of industrial activity is in your area of living/work?
     
    GrumpyCabbie likes this.
  3. Onex Prius

    Onex Prius Junior Member

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    Welcome to the boat. Similar things had happened to owner on Lexus's forum.

    Contact a lemon law lawyer see if they can help.
     
  4. NoMoreNow

    NoMoreNow Member

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    saw this on another forum....Acid Wash sounds bad to use.
    The Electric Me | PriusChat ,Toyota hq should taking care of you, not leaving you hanging. Since the defects on the oem paint.

    ""Beware of acid washes. One of the car wash (detail centers) facilities near me uses an acid bath on every car that comes in for a full detail. WHY? Because acid is the quickest method to remove surface contaminants from a finish. Problem is that is also softens the clear coat plus it removes all the polish/wax/ and sealant on the finish. Repeated use of acid will kill a finish""
     
  5. jhinsc

    jhinsc Senior Member

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    Pictures of the damaged area would help us understand the type of damage you have.
     
    JMD and bwilson4web like this.
  6. zhenya

    zhenya Active Member

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    Yes, we need pictures.

    I also think you need to see a detailing and paint expert, not the dealer. They will know very quickly if it is something that can be repaired or not. Polishing with power tools can do a LOT for paint damage. I'd be very surprised if they can't help, and if not you should have a real case on your hands.
     
    -1- likes this.
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    OP *has* to be one fast typist.
     
  8. phickson

    phickson Tron Pod Occupier

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    I bet Toyota management monitors this forum (they would be crazy not to) and knows thousands of consumers use and see it.

    See how long it takes for them to contact you to try to resolve your problem as they are a reputable car manufacturer.

    Toyota "thinks" their product (your car) is defective or else they wouldn't have tried to resolve it in the first place.

    Maybe someone from district, region or North America Toyota will pick up on your plight and take the appropriate action.
     
    Merkey likes this.
  9. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    If you don't get any satisfaction, start sending letters to corporate in Japan. When I started having problems with a certain German car, the only way I got any action was to start writing letters to Germany. They told me they couldn't help me, but after that, I starting getting phone calls from their American operations to solve the problems.
     
  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    The fact that it is UNDER the clear coat seems to put the ball solidly in their court.
    I would forget about the details at this point and stick strictly to getting them to explain why they don't think it is their responsibility if it is under the factory applied clear coat.

    After that you and they can try to figure out the exact cause.
     
    BCP likes this.
  11. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    I suspect it is an organic containment. There is an insect here in Alberta that, when smashed against the front of the vehicle causes a "rust like" stain that will get right in the 3M vinyl protective cover I have on the car. It won't wash out. I'd bet you have the same type of problem, though in this case it sounds like some kind of industrial fallout and it's soaking into the clearcoat.

    I would actually be surprised if Toyota would deal with it under warranty, and I'm surprised they will actually take responsibility for "rail dust" (which isn't only from train tracks, but can also come from welding shops, vehicles on the road, etc.). All cars use a similar paint process these days, consisting of a water based colour coat (or two or three) with a clearcoat over it, usually a plastic lacquer of some type. The lacquer can easily be melted, for example, by a speck of iron in the sun or a speck of iron heated by a brake pad and spewed out onto your car.

    I doubt that an "acid wash" will damage the -paint- in any way. The paint is plastic and the "acid" is very mild and dilute. The "acid wash" -can- expose the metal underneath the paint if it removes contaminants that were sealing the surface. The contaminants can actually melt through the clearcoat and if removed without re-sealing the resulting "hole" in the clearcoat will allow subsequent washing to remove the protective coatings over the metal. A good wax job will temporarily fix this problem, but if it is allowed to wear off, all bets are off! I'm talking of microscopic holes in the clearcoat here, not areas you could see with the unaided eye.

    Yup, it sucks. Beauty is fleeting in the real world. Your car will inevitably get chips, scratches and scuffs in the paint over time. And apparently, stains too.
     
    The Electric Me and SageBrush like this.
  12. Eclipse1701d

    Eclipse1701d Prius Enthusiast

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    I agree. I purchased a Kawai piano about six years ago. When played, the screws rattled and created a buzzing sound that kind of killed the moment when played. Kawai America had someone come out and put some glue on the screws. Then, it happened again and they were like, sorry, can't help you. I started calling Kawai factories in Japan and said, "Mushi Mushi, Kawai bad, me no happy. Within three days I received a phone call from Kawai in Japan. They sent someone out who removed all panels, felt lined all cracks and reset all screws with a locking gel. The piano has been perfect for six years now! They take this a lot more seriously in Japan!
     
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  13. uropip

    uropip Member

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    Do yourself a favor and find a PRO high end detailer.. not just any old detail place but a REAL detailer.
    They will be able to remedy this.
    I have seen this at our shop and we were able to fix it with the a "corrosive" wash from SEM and good solid detailing afterwards and wax.

    This is not a problem or defect with your car or anything Toyota did!
    IT IS SOMETHING THAT LANDED ON YOUR CAR and rusted once it got wet!
    "industrial fallout", " rail dust", "environmental contaminants" call it what you will.
    It's not something coming up from underneath, it's definitely something on TOP!
    It can be removed with different "buffing" techniques and more aggressive clays (not typically sold to the public).

    This can come from a multitude of things.
    Parking near train tracks or any multitude of different industrial plants, driving behind a tractor trailer with bad brakes on the highway (metal to metal) etc. it can be there for a while before it shows up too!

    This isn't as horrific as it can made out to be.
     
  14. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    I am very sorry about your problem. Unfortunately after the way Toyota handled a couple of lesser issues I have had I am not surprised by their response. As other's have mentioned post some pictures, are these spots all over the car or just in some areas? what color is your car? What undisclosed location do you live in or near? Have any of your neighbors or coworkers had this problem.

    Take your car to a couple of the best body shops in your area and find out what they have to say, they may be able to tell you what exactly caused this problem.

    I once saw a problem similar to this, not on a Toyota, and it turned out to be a defect in the paint that was then covered by the clear coat.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    from the 'innocent bystander' point of view, your disappointment seems logical and i comiserate with you. however, i've read enough complaint posts here over the years to know that sometimes going beyond the dealer results in disappointment, and sometimes in satisfaction and even beyond satisfaction. are these decisions arbitrary? probably no more than any court case or arbitration. it's impossible to know who is right and wrong in these things. first for the involved party's and second for the casual observers.
    i can only wish you the best in the future and some satisfactory outcome that you can live with. seems strange, but perhaps not altogether that someone who waited so long to pull the trigger should have an issue like this, and someone like myself who jumped in head first 12 years ago and six toyota's later has never had any issue's at all. good luck!(y)
     
    Dan4500 and boppo like this.
  16. jadziasman

    jadziasman Prius owner emeritus

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    I agree with uropip on this one, Electric. The spots appeared on your car because of something you drove through or parked under. Contact your insurance agent and see if your comprehensive policy covers this sort of thing.
     
  17. loansum

    loansum Junior Member

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    I'm very sympathetic.
    Questions:

    Why would Toyota believe that an acid wash would remove something under the clear coat?
    Are the spots predominantly on the surfaces that are parallel to the ground? Is that why fallout is suspected?
    Personally, I would focus on the assumption that the spots are under the clear coat, and prove it. Then, demand that they replace the car. This problem isn't isolated to you. Its not like they paint one car a week at the factory. If you can find others, therein lies your advocacy.
     
  18. Steve terry

    Steve terry Member

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    The Toyota dealer seems only concerned about it not being their problem. If they cared about the people that make them a company. What they should do is figure out what caused the problem and HELP you solve the problem. Not just say, IT IS NOT ON US. But that is just my 2 cents. Good luck and let us know the end result.
     
  19. css28

    css28 Senior Member

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    Fatally disappointed?

    I'm so glad my expectations are lower than that.

    I've bought most of my cars used and I find much less stress in my life as a result.

    It also makes me happy that I don't work in customer service.

    Maybe if you post some pictures I'll revise my opinion.
     
  20. Former Member 68813

    Former Member 68813 Senior Member

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    Writing such a long post and not posting even a single picture is weird in this era of cell phones. If I didn't know the OP, I would have assumed he was some kind of astroturfer (fake complainer).