FIRE! no start P3006 - P3016 - P3030 - parts & install ECU + Wire Harness to Traction Batt

Am I the only one to notice the modules are not balanced?

Bob Wilson

 

If the dash has the triangle or check engine light, there are codes.


Side note : Did you fully seat the HA battery orange plug?

 

I think Patrick noticed too.

Michelle, whether you try to eke any more life out of these modules or look for others to work with, you will always be working sort of blind if you don't have a scan tool capable of reading what the battery ECU and HV ECU are trying to tell you. If you have access to a Windows laptop to connect to a Mini VCI, that's fast becoming the combo you read about most in this forum. It's cheap if you've already got the laptop. If not, one of the other options might fit better, but you need something.

If it takes a day or three to arrive, I really hope you will use some of the otherwise "down" time to at least look over autoshop101's hybrid articles, and ideally get signed up at techinfo.toyota.com and start learning where information is found in the manuals for the car. Everybody starts out not knowing much about the car, that's no problem, but we're more than 150 posts into this thread and it still seems you haven't made the effort to answer some of your own basic questions like, is there a starter, is there an alternator, is there a solenoid? What and where is this thing called the SMR and what is it for? I don't mean to sound negative, you've boldly taken on a challenging project, but you're following steps more than having the picture, and it will be easier to help you through your project if we can meet you partway.

Regards,
-Chap

 

We can not tell because they have not been charged to a known voltage level and then had their discharge Ahr tested. Off the top of my head, these options:

MRC 989 / SMART CHARGER - individually connect each module to the device configured to: (1) discharge to 6V., (2) charge at 1A to 8.0V, and (3) discharge to 6V while measuring the Ahr. All of the modules under 6V will need a starter charge to ~6.5V.

MASS BALANCE - in descending order, wire them in parallel and the charge each group to ~8V. Those above 5.8V need to be within 0.5V because they have a significant charge. Wiring them in parallel will minimize the charge sharing-discharging. Based upon your last list:

Strongest group, careful as the wires that balance charge can get very hot:
38 7.72
15 7.61
1 7.52
34 7.51
31 7.49
8 7.41
16 7.39
28 7.27

Probably good but need to be balanced charged:
26 7.22
37 7.19
6 6.85

Look weak but in the range that finger-burning wire heating possible:
9 6.58
10 6.31
2 6.25
5 6.24

Close enough to 6V, give them a cycle:
14 5.98
13 5.97
33 5.92

Not likely but worth one last test:
35 5.68
3 5.53
11 5.51
4 5.43
36 5.32
29 5.20
7 5.18
17 5.18
18 5.04
21 5.03

Most at risk:
25 4.80
22 4.79
30 4.76
12 4.48
23 4.28
27 4.23
19 4.10
32 4.02
24 3.85
20 3.76

The mass, parallel charging is a screening to identify the obviously failed modules. Then take the remaining modules, one-by-one and use a 'battery conditioner' (the proper name for a computer controlled charger and discharger that reads out the discharge Ahr) to report the Ahr capacity.

After testing each module, wire the 'good' modules in parallel and put on an 8V tickle charger. It will take time, typically a week, to screen all 38 modules and the mass of 38 modules in parallel kept at 8V means they can be assembled into a usable pack.​

The protocol is wire the groups in parallel. Then put a 1A charge voltage limited to 8V. During the charge, use an IR temperature reader and look for modules that get hot. If any reach 90F (or +10F relative to the bench,) mark it as bad. Now I did not recommend putting each group between clamp held, boards, because 1A at 8V is not likely to generate gas. But a failed module will swell, a secondary indicator of a module with a failed cell.

Personally, I have very little confidence in any module with less than 5.8V. My experience has been that is the threshold between recoverable and modules that have reached the end of their design life. But these proposed tests will hopefully convince you.

There are hard pack requirements enforced by a working battery ECU to operate the car:

1. No more than 0.3V difference between any pairing of modules - all 38 modules are measured in 19 module-pairs. The maximum difference is 0.3V or it will throw a code and not work.
2. Modules need to have similar Ahr capacity - the current passes equally through all modules. So if you have a 2.5 Ahr module in series with a 5.0 Ahr module and both are at 6V, charging with 2.5A, the 2.5Ahr module will be at 8V in one hour and the 5.0 Ahr module at ~7V . . . this exceeds the 0.3V difference. Because in normal operation, the traction battery is kept between 40% and 80% charge, this allows some tolerance in the module Ahr capacity.

Testing and matching modules is best done with a programmable, battery charger and discharger that can read out the measured discharge capacity. It is terribly time consuming and boring. Anything else, is likely to be a waste of your time.

Remember: GOOD, FAST, CHEAP -- pick two.

Bob Wilson

 

You can run the Mini VCI software on a Macbook using a VM (Bootcamp, VMWare, Parallels, etc) to run Win XP or Win 7 (32 bit) quite successfully.

 

Talk with them but I am sure all they want is the case and control electronics. Rex Taylor was happy to let me keep the failed modules. Any local "Batteries Plus" can send them to the recycler . . . especially if left on their door step at 2:00 AM. <grins>

Used NHW11 modules have almost not residual value. Shipping is expensive and taking out the modules leaves everything else weighing ~20 lbs. They typically replace the NHW11 modules with good ones from more modern Prius.

Bob Wilson

ps. If you are curious about these batteries, I'd be happy to share details:

 

At a voltage of 221 volts your average voltage per cell is 0.97 volts. This is considered to be zero charge. The working voltage of the Nimh cell from fully charged to fully discharged is from around 1.45 volts down to around 1 volt.
The chart below gives the discharge voltage curve for a 4 cell 4.8 volt nominal battery. You will see that when the battery gets below 4 volts the voltage falls rapidly under load. The curve flattens out in the normal working range of the cells at around 1.2 volts. Although some of your modules are above 7.2 volts "the normal working range" they cannot compensate for those that are well bellow that figure.

John (Britprius)

 

. . .
ps. If you are curious about these batteries, I'd be happy to share details:

This is an NHW11 module from a failed pack along with two compression boards and a plastic liner with holes three holes on each side to hold the battery in a fixed location. Notice the curious coloration for each cell boundary which corresponds with the interconnect where heat concentrates. You'll also notice the top board appears to have aluminum foil that is separated by plastic wrap. It is in effect a capacitor whose value varies by the pressure of the module when it expands.


Here the compression boards are held by clamps so the battery module won't expand as the pressure increases and put stress on the internal cell separator bulkheads. The MRC 989 is configured to put a programmed charge and discharge on the module and the temperature probe is in the module recess to avoid overheating the module. To the right is a DVOM set to measure the capacitance of the aluminum foil and plastic wrap used to tell when excess pressure is developed on the battery module.


To the right of the red jumper are bubbles from leaking electrolyte via the small hole drilled to add water. The silvery shapes are bubbles (remember KOH is used to make soap.) I could not find an epoxy that would seal the hole and experiments with hand, plastic welding were not good. This is where my re-hydration experiments came to an end.


This shows the top of the module looking at the inside of the epoxy plug. Also, around the lower terminal, you can make out the black "O" ring that gets too hot and leaks the gas, O{2} and H{2}, that dries out the KOH. You can also see the gap between each cell at the top of the cell bulkheads. This helps keep the KOH electrolyte at the same 'level' in all six cells. The silvery terminal is normal nickel but the red tinted inter-cell nickel shows the multivalent form of the nickel that form one electrode. The second cell shows the internal, pressure relief valve inside the module.


This photo shows another failed, sealing experiment in the 4th and 5th cells using stainless steel, nut-plates heated and snuggled into the thermal plastic. But this did not result in a gas and pressure tight seal. Then looking at the external terminals inside the cells, the color difference of the two nickel compounds are evident.


This photo shows what happened after sawing off the top of the module. It also gives an idea of how high the NiMH electrodes go into the top. This was done with safety glasses, gloves, long-sleeve, shirt, in a light rain.


The nickel electrodes are small, thin plates. The NiMH material and plastic separators are on the right. When sent to a recycler, all of the metal, MH, and plastic are reclaimed.


This graph shows that rehydrating a module and cycle charge-discharge returns the module to ~7.25 Ahr, higher than the new 6.5 Ahr rating. As the module capacity returns, the round-trip, efficiency goes from ~60% to ~90%. This means less energy is lost in heat! Cycle charging a 'dry' module has a very, short term effect that disappears upon leaving the module idle (i.e., I am at work and do not get back in time to restart the 4-cycles of the MRC 989.


The module that did not restore in the earlier test also responded very nicely when properly rehydrated.


This is what happens when a manual monitored charge failed. Gasses accumulated, the pressure increased and it broke the compression rods. Although it is possible to manually charge-discharge modules, humans are not as reliable as a computer managed, battery conditioner like the MRC 989. Some had suggested trying to bulk charge but . . . this is why the battery ECU is so important.


This chart shows the thermal effects of charging an NHW11 traction battery. I used a forced charge, holding the brake down and flooring the accelerator. Those steps are 1C rises, 9/5 F. This is the type of 'heat pumping' that high speeds over 65 mph in hilly terrain can over-stress our traction batteries. Heat is the enemy as it weakens the "O" ring allowing trace amounts of the H{2} and O{2} to escape and dry out the KOH electrolyte.


This difficult chart is looking at the rate of temperature change to see if the rate of temperature significantly changes over the charge cycle and discharge cycle. The green line shows it does not in any practical way.


These are a pair of charts from an SAE paper that initially gave me a clue about charge heating and discharging. I was hoping to replicate these charts with the earlier one. The internal cell resistance provide ohmic heating during both charge and discharge. It is the charge phase when NiMH is exothermic. The subsequent discharge is endothermic but internal resistance negates that effect. (I'm sorry but this is me speaking 'engineer'.)

In lay terms:

• charging NiMH battery generates heat from the chemical reaction
• discharging NiMH battery absorbs heat from the chemical reaction
• internal resistance generates heat both charging and discharging
• the head absorbed during discharge ~= internal resistance generated heat ... they don't get cooler but hold their starting temperature
• the heat absorbed during charge + internal resistance generated heat ... heat pumps the battery to a higher temperature (HEAT IS THE ENEMY!)

What this means is to maximum extent practical, we want to avoid swinging the State of Charge of the traction battery. So when going up a hill, NEVER show the car also taking power from the battery. Let the engine do all of the 'heavy lifting.' Following heavy trucks up a hill as a pacing vehicle works perfectly! Then on the hill descent, use "B" to avoid over-charging the traction battery and control the speed. The excess heat goes out the tail-pipe instead of heat-pumping the traction battery.


This shows the typical mapping of module voltages from a failing pack. Notice the weakest voltages are in the middle, the hottest part, and the stronger modules are on both ends. My first mapping of your voltages showed this pattern.


After I returned the case and battery ECU, I surveyed my perfectly working, NHW11 modules. What I found were clusters of Ahr capacity. Group F were the lowest in the 1.25 Ahr range. Group A were great in the 3.25-4.00 Ahr range. These were all in a perfectly good pack that I had Re-Involt 'upgrade' to NHW20 modules.


This quad-sector, scatter chart shows typical operational engine torque, MG1 Nm, versus traction battery amps:

• lower right quadrant shows traction battery used to start and stop the engine.
• lower left quadrant is a 'bad place' where the engine was generating power AND the traction battery was providing power. A few will always happen BUT efficient driving paying attention to the energy flow allows us to avoid this place that will heat the traction battery.
• the lower Y-axis showing traction battery discharge is perfectly OK because the engine is off.
• the upper left quadrant is efficient driving where the engine is generating power at maximum efficiency and storing the excess power in the traction battery. The instant MPG chart will show low MPG but that does not matter because it is stuffing the power in the traction battery for later use when the engine is off, not generating power.

This is the reason why I could recently post this:

Due to using oversized tires, 105.2%, the true values were:

• 77.6 MPG
• 533.4 miles

I am preparing our 2003 Prius to do ~80-84 MPG for ~900 miles . . . another efficient driving stunt.

Bob Wilson

 

The tires are:

• front - Yokohama Avid P195/70R14 as they rub in the rear wheel well when going over a dip.
• rear - Yokohama Avid P185/70R14 are slightly smaller diameter but clear the wheel well.

I finally got my EZ SHIMs used for rear wheel toe and camber alignment. The passenger side, rear wheel is at ~0.25 degrees, way too much. Once I get it right, all four tires should last and wear evenly with the minimum rolling resistance. These tires are rated at 51 psi maximum sidewall and that is what I typically run.

Understand that North Alabama seldom gets much snow or ice and when it does, the 'powers that be' declare it an emergency, the kids stay or go home, and everyone gets a snow-day . . . some with pay.

Bob Wilson

 

Boot Camp is free from Apple; the others are commercial products. IIRC I sold Parallel for ~ $30 a couple of years ago on Ebay. In addition to the VM, you have to own or buy the Windows OS