First Hyundai now BMW. Ditching Fuel Cell Vehicles

I think the other automakers see the writing on the wall that FCV's are going to be a huge money sink without much to show for it.

 

Fuel cells may have a future as a cleaner than ICE range extender for a plug in. I think we'll see Al-air batteries there first, but a fuel cell does have some advantages over it. The main being less hassle than replacing the aluminum anodes for those that would use the range extender regularly. The fuel cell itself needs to come down in price, but progress has already taken place there.

The real hurdle is in using high pressure hydrogen as the fuel. The hydrogen has to be made in some fashion then spend the energy compressing it. If made centrally, getting it to the stations has its issues, which are bypassed by making it at the station at the expense of efficiency and cost.

Metal hydride storage reduces the hurdles some by requiring lower pressures for refueling with hydrogen and ditching the heavy, bulky tanks. If it also involves swappable hydrogen 'containers', it further reduces the hurdle by lowering the number of actual refueling stations needed. Using methanol would make the refueling infrastructure investment not much greater than for gasoline. With an open fuel standard and blender pumps, it becomes even easier to implement. It just puts CO2 emissions back to the car's tailpipe.

 

i thought hundai just started leasing them?

 

Yep, and Honda and Mercedes had models previously available. Just lease though, which is why Toyota can claim first FCV sold in the US. And maybe in Japan or the world. I don't recall if Hyundai was leasing or selling their FCV in Northern Europe.

 

What is it toyota expects 10% of mirai to be sold, that means 300 sold, 2700 leased in the next 3 years in the US. I guess Toyota can claim some medal or monument if they want but it seems pretty meaningless.

GM first fuel cell test fleet
Honda Clarity first productized fcv
Hyundai Tuscon fcv first mass produced fuel cell vehicle
Toyota? if they actually do it, will be the first to sell a fcv in the US and be responsible for spare parts, but its a tiny quantity. I'd give the clarity first first mention.

 

Like the original Insight.
Honda can claim first hybrid sold in North America.
How did that work out for them?

 

I'm guessing leasing;

First Hyundai ix35 Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars delivered to UK customers | Auto Express

Hyundai |Car Offers UK | New Car Deals and Special Offers for 2014

Nowhere on the Hyundai website does it offer the FCV version of the Ix35. This quote from the above link is also interesting;

"The first customers for the ix35 Fuel Cell include Transport for London, ITM Power, Air Products and Johnson Matthey, a London-based chemicals and precious metals company."

I'm guessing Johnson Matthey are interested in the fuel cell version as they'd then be able to sell lots and lots of platinum to Hyundai if the car was a success.

Note: I've just noticed that the cars are all Left Hand Drive and thus appear to be test mules lent out to selected customers. Whilst it isn't illegal to sell new LHD vehicles here, it would severely restrict sales - just ask Chevrolet and their Corvette. I assume this is similar to Toyota offering a small number of test mule PIP's to select customers back in 2010 too, though at least they were RHD.

 

Yep, leasing. The first ones went to fleets in Denmark and Sweden. I remembered Sweden, but not the lease or sale part.
Hyundai ix35 Fuel Cell

 

I imagine so many years back, Toyota's "help wanted" Ad; Lead Engineer - To Head up Fuel Cell Feasibility Program. Continued employment commensurate with programs' success. "
What do you want a bet that person has recently gotten his walking papers.
.

 

maybe not until the government puts them off the teat.

 

This is just dickering. BMW wants the guv'mint to foot the infrastructure bill.

 

You mean the Chairman of the board? He started working on fuel cells 22 years ago. He has lots of power.

 

I know, I know. But hey . . . . . there's no better way for leadership to save face, than to blame Toyota's Engineering version of "Leutenant William Calley" ......
( William Calley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia "... I will have to say that I was a 2nd Lieutenant getting orders from my commander and I followed them—foolishly, I guess ...")
for their hydrogen ills - by pushing responsibility down the chain of command - onto those whose expertise they ostensibly rely. That's what big business does when the exec's suddenly realize that they're way way way off the mark they claim it's the little guy.
.

 

I don't think toyota's top brass is blaming anyone.

We have a chairman of the board that wields a lot of power and is a true believer. Akio appears to be appeasing him by saying he believes too, but not anytime soon. There is a problem turning such a big ship. I think we can see Akio's plan. Bleed less cash on hydrogen, but use his chairman to help shake up North American dead wood by moving headquaters, losing bad employees along the way. If the hydrogen car works mr. Toyoda can take credit, but if it fails, he can pivot with some of that cash $60B and get musk or somone else to help him build a better plug-in.

The Toyota corporate footprint to blame the right guy was in the last introduction if hydrogen fails.
2016 Toyota Mirai FCV First Drive – Video - HybridCars.com

Remember in the book sancho (Ogiso) knew that his boss was delusional, but went along because that was his job. We will see in 5 years what toyota is saying then. I think they will be saying this hundred years thing ;-) but will have at least 2 plug-ins out that outsells the mirai.

 

did i say 'fuel for the next century'? translation error, i meant 'fuel within the next century.'

 

Fair enough, so Mark Reuss is Bob Lutz' successor. Bob Lutz spoke 11 years ago at the 2004 Detroit Autoshow: GM: Hybrid cars make no sense
Can't wait to hear this time what they have to say about FCEVs. And in 2025 .............

 

When bob lutz made that speach, GM was spending heavily for fuel cell vehicles to the tune of $2.5B. I doubt you will here Reuss bad mouth fuel cell vehicles the way bob carter and jim lenz have been bad mouthing plug-ins.