Fly the Flag Campaign

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 9 2006, 08:50 PM) [snapback]317180[/snapback]</div>

Whereas we know it's only people on the far right edges that know more than everyone else.

And I'm sure they altruistically have everyone's best interest at heart, not just their own profit, comfort and bottom line.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Sep 10 2006, 12:27 PM) [snapback]317357[/snapback]</div>

Spoken like a true San Franbian

Well said, Daniel has admitted he was an Athiest on past threads.

 

Something is Shmika's posts struck me as strange. When I was a cadet in the Air Force I saw a note on the bulletin board one day that said, "A year ago I coodn't spel lootenint. Now I are one."

If one is a dedicated longtime believer in Jesus, don't you think he might know that he is a Christian, not a Christion?

Call me picky....

It amazes me that people who compile long lists of things they are willing to die for, and with the infinite opportunites available for them to do so, are still alive. They simply aren't trying hard enough.

I flew airplanes with nuclear weapons aboard targeted against some pretty aggressive folks. I was never "willing to die" for anything. It was a risk of the job but I was going to do every damned thing I could think of to avoid the honor while doing the job assigned to me. I always wore my parachute.

I think my dead military buddies felt the same.

 

A couple of OT thoughts, and then maybe a return to the topic:

Daniel, you've done a great job of simply and dispassionately stating your argument in a way that others should be able to understand. I don't think you need to further defend yourself since your attackers have clearly proven themselves to be intentionally ignoring or misunderstanding your words.

Christians: (and even Christ-Ons... weird that he had to define a new, farther than right, right wing to the right wing) it seems decidedly un-Christian to attack the beliefs of other people, not to mention definitively un-American.

Also, as a Christian it has always seemed very odd to me that the Republican right ever managed to wrap up the idea of Christianity with their politics. Honestly, nothing in their politics seems remotely "Christian" to me, and I believe that the Republican party would be nowhere without having ensnared so many Christians. Examples of un-Christian behavior: Public policies that involve aggressive attitudes to our neighbors, Tax structures that clearly benefit the wealthiest people in a disproportionate way, lack of support for things like care of our poor and homeless, or a national healthcare system that could protect its most vulnerable people from even the simplest of medical problems.

I think if Christians stop blindly believing what they're told about their religion somehow matching Republican politics they may start to realize the mistake.

So, tomorrow is the day for those who choose to fly the flag. I still wouldn't mind seeing a picture or two like the ones immediately after 9/11 where every house on the block had a flag. Sadly I don't see it happening because of the way G.W.B. and friends have divided the county and destroyed international support.

 

You can not call yourself christian and be for war. Christianism is a pacifist religion as shown by the following references.

Jesus revealed to us how to live in accordance with how his creation works. “Love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.” ( Mt 5.44 , Lu 6.27 , Lu 6.3 ) “Do not use force against an evil man.” ( Mt 5.39 ) “Do not resist evil with evil.” “Forgive and you will be forgiven.” (Lu 6.37 ) “Do not be anxious about your life.”( Lu 12.22 ) “He who lives by the sword will perish by the sword.” ( Mat 26.52 ) “In everything do to others as you would have them do to you.” (Mat 7.12 )

The rest of the New Testament contains more of the same. “Do not return evil for evil.” ( 1 Pet 3.9 , Rom 12.17 , 1 Thes 5.15 )
“Overcome evil with good.”( Rom 12.21 ) “Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” (Rom 12.19 )

And there is the little commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill". The commandments did not include extenuating circumstances.

You can chose to ignore christian teachings and call yourself a christian but your own religion would then doom you to hell. This is not meant as an insult, its an interpretation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Sep 10 2006, 09:27 AM) [snapback]317357[/snapback]</div>

Daniel's recurring attacks on Christians is to say that they are not Christians, and are instead "Paulists". He says he is considerate of others, yet seems to have no idea that to some followers of Jesus, he has given them the theological eqivalent of "Go to HELL!" He redefines everything, including the meaning of commonly understood words like "communism" and in so doing creates a "bubble environment" where nothing he says can be challenged.

It is patently offensive to tell someone the faith they hold is a false faith, and that you, who don't beleive the main tenants of the faith, are really one of the few people who understand the true nature of god. Because our culture is made up of mostly Christians, we don't react to this the way we should. It is an insult of the highest magnitude, not unlike those that tell Muslims that they are really polytheists (the ultimate insult to a Muslim) because "Allah" is really the moon god of one ancient tribe. Lies are lies, even if they are composed of facts arranged in a clever manner.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 10 2006, 01:14 PM) [snapback]317403[/snapback]</div>

Maybe he actually read and studied the bible without preconceived notions. I recommend the series on bible history by Bart Ehrman at the teaching company.

 

I'll take the simplest and most obviously wrong of your statements here and let people infer the quality of your other arguments. Daniel tried, in quite a direct way, to help you understand the motivation and philosophy of "communism," not the common misconception, with all the attached prejudices that came from our long conflict with the Soviets, and other countries who practice(d) a form of government that's as far as you can get from the ideals of communism.

You attacked and tried to insult him by essentially calling him a Communist (and by your attitude I think it's safe to assume you meant it in the way that Joseph McCarthy would have said it), and he simply and deftly showed you the error in your accusation.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Sep 10 2006, 11:50 AM) [snapback]317373[/snapback]</div>

Huh? Care to define?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Sep 10 2006, 11:50 AM) [snapback]317373[/snapback]</div>

Another problem with definitions.

An athiest is not necessarily a communist. I daresay there may even be Republicans that are athiests. There are certainly Gay Republicans. (Why, I have no clue. There are also Gay Catholics which also confuses me.)

And apparently communists are not necessarily athiests, since churches instantly had congregations when the communist Soviet Union gave way to Russia. Or maybe they all saw the light and converted over night?

 

I apologize for the occasional typo. I don't spen the time spell-checking. Tell me, when you are having a conversation, do you worry about slight mispronunciations if everyone gets the gist?

If I spelled Christians wrong everytime, I would appreciate a correction...but...

Oh, to Daniel, I found the passage.

1 COR 2:14 (KJV)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Natural man- non-believer, not yet under the Grace of Christ. The word of God is a thing from the spirit of God. The Bible is foolishness unto you and you cannot know spiritual things because they are spiritually discerned.

I was like you about spiritual things not so very long ago. The day I was saved and born again, a veil lifted from my eyes and the simple truth was revealed. Am I still learning about this simple truth...yes, but the first step to knowledge is admission that there is something new to learn.

Am I perfect...no. Do I have a lot to learn, yes. Can I still not know precisely what God wants me to know, yes.

Now, the NEXT thing I need to find. The passage that states that our battles here on earth are NOT against flesh, or principalities, or people....but against evil in high places...against satan himself.

So, my focus, and the focus I support in others, is to root out and stand against ALL manner of evil. In this great battle, there are NO innocent bystanders (except children who have not yet reached the age of understanding). You either support good, or you support evil. If you allow evil to be present, you support it.

Satan owns you from your birth...it is your choice to repudiate him and accept Christ. The natural man is separated from God. The things of this world are emnity with God. But, born again believers are in this world...thereby having to follow all the rules of the world...but we are not OF the world. I am just passing through.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 10 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]317576[/snapback]</div>

This is very scary..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Sep 10 2006, 09:50 AM) [snapback]317373[/snapback]</div>

More of a proclamation than an "admission." The word "admission" suggests something one is ashamed of. I proclaim my atheism as openly as you proclaim your Christianity.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 10 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]317403[/snapback]</div>

Funny. This is what Christians always do: insisting that theirs is the only "true" religion and that all others are false. And often insisting that the followers of other faiths are intentionally worshipping Satan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 10 2006, 08:25 PM) [snapback]317576[/snapback]</div>

Corinthians, of course, is one of Paul's many letters. Paul invented what is now modern Christianity by marginalizing or discarding all Jesus's teachings, and substituting in place of those teachings worship of Jesus as god. Where Jesus taught his followers that salvation was to be achieved by living a certain kind of life (pacifism, poverty, love of enemy, etc.) Paul taught that salvation was to be achieved by mere belief in the divinity of Jesus. Corinthians, therefore, is not a statement of what Jesus taught, but rather it is Paul's new religion, now a cornerstone of modern Christianity.

In the early days of the Christian era, there were many Christianities. Christians battled out questions of whether there was one god, two gods, or three gods; whether Jesus was man, god, or both; whether he actually suffered on the cross or not; whether salvation was universal (the belief that god is love, and would therefore send nobody to eternal tormet still has followers) or not. Whether you had to become a Jew and be circumcised before you could become a Christian. And the list goes on and on. Eventually, Paul's version won out, partly due to the economic power of the Roman church, partly due to Paul's own persuasiveness, and eventually sealed when the Roman empire adopted it and put its military might behind it. But there were, in the early days, Christians who believed in following the teachings of Jesus. It's really rather sad that they lost out, because a religion that preaches love is so much nicer than a religion that glorifies war and places property rights above human life. The alliance between Christianity and capitalism is one of the most peculiar developments of history. Even Paul himself says that the love of money is the root of all evil, and what is the profit motive but the insatiable lust for the accumulation of obscene quantities of money?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Schmika @ Sep 10 2006, 10:25 PM) [snapback]317576[/snapback]</div>

You know why this is scary? Because if you just change a word or two, this sounds an awful lot like the Al Qaida and Taliban rants against the U.S. It sounds like those fundamentalist muslim extremists.

It's also why Thomas Jefferson wrote about a separation of church and state. The last thing this country needs is a national religion to justify the persecution and relegation to second class of any citizen that is not a member of the chosen religion.

Satan does now own me from birth.

I am a Lutheran. I will never convert to "Southern Baptist".

Oh....and I see it's PAUL again.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 10 2006, 11:04 PM) [snapback]317587[/snapback]</div>

Not only that, but you have to be their BRAND of Christianity.

In other words it's not enough I'm a Christian. I have to be Catholic, or Southern Baptist or (fill in the blank) to be saved. I have to worship exactly the way they do and believe exactly the way they do.

Ain't gonna happen. I have issues with the Lutherans as well. But not enough to leave the flock. That's the problem with having free will AND a brain to do my own thinking.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Sep 10 2006, 11:31 AM) [snapback]317410[/snapback]</div>

Fair enough, I understand your position. I still disagree with you, but you haven't resorted to insulting my religion or my country's flag, so I have no quarrel with you.






<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Sep 10 2006, 09:04 PM) [snapback]317587[/snapback]</div>

One of the hallmarks of prejudice is the use of inclusive terms ... such as "what Christians always do:". That is also patently offensive, as not all Christians "always do" that. It is the bigoted language you are eager to dish out, but bristle when I use much milder language to point out that the most prominent communists of the last century were mass murderers. My statement is true; yours is provably false.

 

I just hung up my flag on the barn for all to see and remember.

 

My way to commemorate this day is to listen to a Teaching Company lecture on US/Middle eastern relations. I want to understand why it happened and what can be done to prevent it in the future.

United States and the Middle East: 1914 to 9/11

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fshagan @ Sep 10 2006, 10:29 PM) [snapback]317609[/snapback]</div>

I retract the word "always," with apologies to those Christians who believe that all religions are equally valid, and that atheists and members of different religions are not worshippers of Satan, and I thank you for pointing out my hasty and incorrect use of the inclusive term.

My statement still applies to those Christians (and they are legion, especially among the evangelical denomications and the RC church, and they are plentiful among even many of the more moderate denominations) who insist that theirs is the Only True Religion and that everyone else is going to hell.

And I repeat that none of the mass murderers on your list was a communist, though they claimed to be, as politicians often claim to be what they are not. In this, you are cynically using a simple difference of definition of a word to lump me in with people whose every belief and moral standard is the exact opposite of mine. I praise a philosophy in which people cooperate with one another and share in all things, both work and its fruits, though I doubt it is practical; and you pretend that I am talking about a dictatorship enforced by military might.

Where is the "truth" in your statement when you slander my name by linking me to mass murderers based on their false use of a word? And when have I ever praised any of the people on your list, or ever praised or justified any of their actions?

 

Remember 9/11/2001.
United we stand. Divided we fall.
My flag is flying proudly today!

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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoSpam @ Sep 11 2006, 07:43 AM) [snapback]317685[/snapback]</div>

Colbert Nation.

Daniel, it's uncanny how you seem to speak directly for me, only with more clarity than I can manage under similar circumstances. Thank you for being a THINKING and coherent communicatior.