Food for Thought: PiP a preview of the future of Prius?

The belief upon potential sales wasn't based upon who or what GM was doing, but simply a projection of the PiP's sales in the 14 states alone, which didn't include all the big hybrid and plug in markets.

Then why even announce a date of nationwide rollout upon release of the model if Toyota was going to take the slow approach? The fact is that they had badly overestimated PiP sales as GM did for the Volt. "Toyota's initial global sales goal was to sell more than 60,000 Prius PHV a year, with Japan as the main market and aiming for 40,000 units, two-thirds of the carmaker's global sales goal."-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Prius_Plug-in_Hybrid#Markets_and_sales

Toyota choose to back out of the national rollout because of actual sales. Doing so and saving the tax credits might of been a good business move, but that also made it the safe one, because they didn't minimize risk but avoided it. That's fine, but would the Prime be as affordable as it is if GM and/or Nissan had abandoned the plug in segment in light of poor sales? Their continued investment in their models is a major force in the driving down of Li-ion battery costs. Would Toyota even be offering a Prime without them?

And Toyota did a horrible job educating on the PiP from my personal perspective. What I know about it, and why now think it is a viable concept, is because of what you and USB posted here about the car.

 

It's called marketing. You try out an idea. If it doesn't work, you try something else.

In this case, they carefully observed how the market was responding to the variety of choices offered.

Since Toyota had diversified anyway, it was no big deal. When cost dropped enough, they'd be ready. I know that flash rubs you the wrong way, but there is no damage control or reeducation this way.

 

The main factor in how the gen 5 will be is IMO future battery technology and cost.
Batteries with high charging power capabilities means vast improvement of regeneration efficiency which is quite low right now. Catching higher percent of the available kinetic energy is an area having big potential to develop thus improving drive efficiency.
So, I can see:
3-4 kWh battery with higher charge/discharge power.
Relying more on battery and less on ICE.
Keeping the HSD concept. Maybe with different torque split to achieve the above (was not changed since gen 1!).
Can come in two versions - with and without a plug. High battery charge power means also shorter charge time from external source.

 

a 3 kWh battery without a plug? maybe in mountain territory.

 

3 kWh and relying less on the ICE.
Regeneration today is ~30% of the available kinetic energy (I think) catching more means larger battery.

 

i purchased my '04 because i heard of the mpg's mostly, and the hybrid tech. i was concerned about the battery, but the warranty eased my fears. 2001 camry was our first vehicle, so i didn't know much about toyota, but was happy with the camry.

 

Another concept we may see in future hybrids is using ultra capacitors alongside batteries to handle 'bursts of energy' both directions.

 

e-power is a new concept. as always, i'm skeptical, and will wait to see how it proves out. i'm not enamored with burning gas to make electricity, just to have ev driving experience.

 

PriusChat user @hobbit already has a picture of the capacitor box used on the Prius.
http://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/pix/uyv3/999brake-caps2.jpg

from several articles around the web here's a summery of one: Ultracapacitors: The Power To Change the Automobiles We Drive | Search Autoparts

"The Toyota Prius gasoline-hybrid employs the use of Maxwell's UCs, notably in smaller out-of-the-way places, freeing up space for other features and amenities. Amongst other uses, the UCs capture and store electricity harvested from regenerative braking for use later, such as when accelerating."

I believe the box of caps was replaced by a couple of UCs in later models.

 

Toyota is doing work on linear, free piston generators. Instead of having the engine pistons turn a crankshaft, which in turns the generator, the piston sits free in the cylinder. It works against a gas spring that pushes in back up at the end of its stroke. The magnets and wire coils of the generator are incorporated into the piston and cylinder walls. So the generator makes electricity in the same manner as those shaking flashlights.

These will be smaller and lighter than a current genset.

Actually, no, it isn't new. A car back in the '20s or '30s had what was called an electric transmission, but was really a basic series hybrid. Series hybrids have been used in locomotives, ships, and house sized earth movers for decades. A battery buffer is somewhat new, but I think GE was offering in locomotives not long after the gen2 Prius arrived.

E-power is also how the i3 REx works, but it varies engine load to match car speed instead running it at its most efficient point all the time.

I think ultra caps are more likely in a gen5 Prius, if doesn't have a plug, than a larger battery. Costs for them are also coming down, Mazda already uses one in their ICE regen braking system, and they are simply better at taking a large electrical charge over a shorter time. They and a battery the same size or slightly larger should be easier to package in the car than the larger battery.

The current capacitors in the Prius have nothing to do with regen braking, but are an emergency power back up for operating the brakes in the unlikely event the car loses traction battery power.

 

Speaking of Ultra Capacitors but a bit off-topic:
I don't know if this was published internationally, but a prototype city bus, driven entirely by UC, is planned to be tested on the streets of Tel Aviv next year, in one of the busiest lines.
The concept is simple: 2-3 minutes of 'burst charging' the UCs could be sufficient for driving the bus 2-3 km of low city speed. Since stations are about 1 km apart, it is enough to install 'overhead' charging structure at each station so the bus connects to them while stationary. Further development could need charging every second station.

 

yes, i meant the whole car, and concept of burning gas to drive on electricity. it might prove efficient in city driving, or it might not. but there are other considerations such as pollution and fossil fuel usage.

 

Running an engine at a single speed not only allows it to be run at its most efficient point, but should also make it easier to design an effective emission system.

This would be better in a PHEV, but Nissan likely needs a plain hybrid that is cheap in Japan. My understanding of fuel economy targets there is that it is based upon the highest efficiency car currently available in the segment, which would be the Aqua for the Note.

 

Nissan's not running the Note e-Power's engine at a single RPM point, though - it's maxing out at 5400 RPM. Basically, it's a lazier way to do what Toyota does with a power split device.