Ford : C-Max Hybrid to have better fuel economy than Prius v

Toyota is on track to sell about 50k V's this year. Would Ford like a piece of that? I imagine they would!

 

The 2012 5-door Ford Focus(36mpg/26mpg) looks like the 2012 5-door Hyundai Accent(40mpg/30mpg) - it looks like the main difference is the Focus has some added horsepower (and weight).

The Ford C-Max hybrid is based on an Lithium Ion battery which should give it a power-to-weight ratio advantage over the Prius V's older NiMH battery tech. The Ford C-Max weighs about the same as the Prius V so the advantage in MPG should be incremental rather than signficantly higher. The Lithium Ion battery tech will likely make t he C-Max Hybrid a bit more expensive than the Prius V.

 

But not a piece of the 150,000 Prius market. Not a piece of the 20,000 Highlander/RX450 market it just left.

Aim low and small seems to be Ford's strategy, the same strategy that has seen US car makers market share decline, seem them go out of business repeatedly.

In 2012, Ford was not competitive with Toyota on hybrid. Sold my Ford hybrid, got a Toyota. In 2015, at current trends, Ford will not be competitive when I purchase again.

 

I agree. Without any real competition, Toyota only had to put incremental improvements to the 3rd generation Prius instead of going all out - because they knew they had their market segment share 100% locked up. Both VW(European Div) and Ford(European Div) now sell models which could compete with the 2012 Prius Hatchback both in fuel efficiency at about the same price point but the powers that be have decided not to compete with the Prius in North America. What gives? My educated guess is that Toyota has priced the Prius more agressively in the USA than any other country in the world (i.e. buying a Prius in the USA is cheaper than in Germany or Australia or Japan) and even with the Prius extra/premium price until now that got the competition spooked.

With close to 100% market share/penetration for hi fuel efficiency - ecologically oriented drivers, inorder for Toyota to expand its Prius market base it had to expand into other market segments, which is why Toyota is now bring out the Prius c, Prius v, and Plug-in Prius. Toyota's market expansion will put added competitive pressures in the B-segment(subcompact), crossover, and plug-in/BEV segment markets.

Ford realizing that Toyota's expanding market base strategy could eat into Ford's crossover market segment have introduced their C-Max line to make sure they hold onto their crossover market segment.

 

Let's face it this is about the c-max hybrid and energi, not the prius. The energi will compete with the prius phv, but the prius stands a lone. The c-max should be judged on its own merrits as a cross over hybrid and plug in. We should not whine that it's not a prius killer, that would be anouther car, and neither ford nor I think it would be sucessful.

I disagree here. The insight failed to be a competitor. No one really has the car right now to go directly at the prius juggernaut. But that doesn't mean the prius does not have competition. People buy non-hybrids. That is the competition and the reason toyota needs to improve.

Its not just the price its customer loyalty and reputation. I only see hyundai with their current strategy going more directly at the prius, and that will be a different type of hybrid.

 

Your original post seem to imply that CR was saying the ecoboost can only pull as much as the 5.0.

5.0 V8 to 3.5 ecoboost is the wrong comparison, and I harp on this because I've made the same mistake. The ecoboost produces more torque at a lower rpm than the 5.0. If the maximum tow rating is needed, only the ecoboost and 6.2 can attain it. Compared to the ecoboost's 15/21/17 (city/hwy/combined), the 6.2 is rated 12/16/13.

The 5.0 is only one mpg shy in the city and two on the highway than the ecoboost. It isn't surprising CR got similar numbers. If a driver can keep off the pedal, the ecoboost will give them better economy. On an extended road trip, Cleanmpg.com averaged over 30mpg with a, technically overweighted, 2WD ecoboost crew cab.

The only reason Ford still offers V8s is out of nostalgia. Well, and the 5.0 gets a CAFE boost for being flex fuel.

That sounds right for your co-workers in combined driving. 19-21mpg only appears in the highway entry of the EPA sticker for any full size truck. Testing procedures may have been adjusted in 2008, but the public still drives faster than the tests, and still misconstrues what city and highway are for them.

CR's economy tests are not scientific, meaning controlling for variables and repeatability. They are far better than other real road tests, but the results can't be cross compared. The testing is outside. While they don't test in wet weather, the site is in Connecticut. A state with varying temperatures and, unless they use their own special mix, gasoline blends. Do they adjust for varying traffic conditions on the 150 mile loop? Then there are the puzzlers, like the Prius' city mileage they got.

I started questioning their truck reviews when they claimed full time 4WD is always better, and it was a con for trucks only offering part-time. The reality is that it depends on the person's intended use and need. The part time can return better fuel economy, and unless the full time has a locking transfer case, is better when you are really off road.

 

Most of those European models are diesels. Which have their own PR problems in the states. Plus, the publics' need for acceleration. The Cruze will be available with a diesel this fall. GM is bringing over the 2.0L and not the smaller one though. Likely because the press, and by extension the people, wouldn't accept sub 10sec 0-60 times.

You are right, the Prius is a bargain here. Honda tried going after the Prius instead of offering a hybrid Fit, which they had, or Odyssey. They were unwilling or unable to price the Insight to really undercut the Prius. They ended up just highlighting what a deal the Prius was.

Why take the Prius on either way when there are plenty of other segments to bring a hybrid to though. Ford's first was the Escape, which gave them first SUV bragging rights. The Fusion came to market around the same time as the Camry. The C-max (maybe it was different behind the scenes or I just missed some news) was announced before the v.

I think Toyota's expansion of the Prius line is more in response to competitors. The v is less different from the Prius than the Matrix and Corolla. It was not a major undertaking to bring to market. Why did Toyota wait with the clamoring for a minivan? Many cars come to market with a sedan and hatchback model at the same time. The PHV might not be for sale now without the Volt. The Prius is forward thinking, but Toyota seems to have taken their time taking the thinking sideways.

 

The 5.0L tested by CR was rated for 7800lbs towing, the 3.5TT was rated for 8200lbs. Payload was 14XX for both (within 25 lbs). The 3.5TT had more fuel friendly final drive compared to the 5.0L, but the capabilities of the trucks were pretty much the same.

I live in rural WV. It is pretty much all highway driving here. It is mostly country highway/interstate with stops here and there, but certainly nothing like what I'd call city driving. I averaged 22.02mpg over 27,117 miles in my 22mpg highway rated 4Runner.

I think CR's full time 4WD preference comes from readers. I can't tell you how many people on the 4Runner forum are pissed that you have to get the Limited to get full time 4WD. They want to be able to run 4WD whenever they want, fuel economy be damned. I'm personally thrilled that my 4Runner is only part time 4WD because that means I should get better fuel economy than if it were full time 4WD. I also like the RWD dynamics better than AWD. Most full timers I've come across do have a locking center differential for offroad use. I guess the ideal condition would be like the earlier 4Runners where you have 2H, 4H, 4H(locked), 4L, 4L(locked). I can understand multi-mode being costly though, and most makers going either part time or full time.

 

Just keep in mind that Toyota has sold tons, have had them on the market for many years.
They have all the input from customers/drivers for a long time.
They have made the improvements deemed necessary to stay on top of the market.

If any manufacturer comes close to messing with Toyotas sales, believe it...
they will improve where they need to. They just dont need to yet.

And believe what you think, but Toyota has so much up their sleeve,
they are ready and waiting to wow anyone that tries to compete.

No one even has the balls, let alone the possibility to compete for the top.

 

At least half agree. Toyota has a long history and made the (minimal) investments to stay on top.

Not sure I agree they have "su much up their sleeve". I see this as the classic Innovators Dilemma. I did say "wow" at the PiP, just not in a positive way. We'll see how the Energi does but I don't see it as a major change like the Volt. I see it as a me-too/Carb play hoping to get a few sales and not look too stupid. I've seen more ads for ford FFE/Energy than volts.. so they are playing it for the press.
Smart move in one sense since by comparing to the V, their sales won't look as bad.

 

Well, all vehicles are obviously affected by the competition, but I think the Gen 2 Prius, Gen 3 Prius, Prius c and Prius v were all expansions to increase sales. Gen 2 met the US demand for a larger car, the Gen 3 improved highway performance to increase global appeal and the Prius c and Prius v responded to other market shifts from higher gas prices.

The PiP is a different matter: I expect it came half a generation early due to the Volt and LEAF. Toyota is a high-volume hybrid manufacturer and I'm sure that without PEV competition they'd have waited until the plug-in would have been a more financially compelling purchase.

Remember that the Prius is the top selling hybrid but it's still a small percentage of the market and Toyota were ready to manufacture the Gen 3 in Mississippi in order to help expand US sales. That was delayed by the recession and now it looks like they'll start with the Gen 4. I don't think they've ever stood still with the Prius but their dominance has meant that haven't had to rush anything to market. While other manufacturers are using lithium now, they don't have Toyota's NiMH capability and large and expanding hybrid sales numbers. Toyota won't bring lithium as a liftback option until Gen 4 in 2015.

 

C-Max Energi wins with its 21-mile EV range, and Prius PHV wins the HV mpg contest. Cost to drive and savings are identical.

2013 C-Max Energi after EV depletion: 44 City; 41 Highway; 43 Combined
Compare Side-by-Side

 

As expected, Energi completed both city and highway tests without using the gas engine. That gave a boost to 100 MPGe.

Emission for US average is 240 g/mi, slightly higher than C-Max hybrid at 236 g/mi. PiP is rated 210 g/mi, still holding the cleanest PHEV title.

Beyond Tailpipe Emissions

 

MotorTrend 2012 Toyota Prius V vs. Ford's 2013 C-MAX Hybrid!

He waved Good Bye with 60 mpg written on the palm of his hand.

 

Thanks for posting the video. I love how at the end he waves his hand with 60mpg on it. That is in line with the other reports we've been reading about the GenIV. I'm so getting one! LOL

 

I can't believe how much cargo room is sacrificed in the energi. I was considering trading in my gen 3 prius for the c max energi. not after seeing this!

 

Yeah, the hybrid was bad enough but the Energi cargo volume was a deal breaker for me. Might as well get a Volt. Besides, that weird instrument cluster pod makes me feel like I'm staring at Johnny 5! Short Circuit reference.

 

My question is...
is that 60 MPG going to be similar to 47 MPG of C-Max and Fusion? Or trully 20% real life improvement?

 

^^^
Thanks for that. More info and another video at Ford C-MAX Energi plug-in hybrid test drive (video) -- Engadget.

 

It could be a mix of both but I would expect a solid 10% for the following reasons:

• 44.5 MPG (27) - 2002 Prius, user MPG, compact sedan
• 46.3 MPG (137) - 2008 Prius, user MPG, 1.5L hatchback
• 49.0 MPG (39) - 2011 Prius, user MPG, 1.8L hatchback
• 52.1 MPG (25) - 2012 Prius c, user MPG, 1.5L hatchback

We are seeing steady, solid increases in user reported MPG but we know there are 'low hanging fruit' still out there:

1. The 'Prius c' transaxle has incorporated an ATF only cooling system that uses gear driven, pumping versus the previous, engine-only pump but a full, dry-sump could further reduce gear drag.
2. Significant engine compartment cooling drag can be reduced by temperature operated, automatic shutter doors.
3. Advanced shocks/suspension could support higher pressure tires to reduce rolling drag, extend life, and improve handling.
4. Moon-cap wheel covers to minimize wheel drag.
5. All camera rear and side views to reduce external drag and improve safety.
6. Variable duration and angle valves to widen the fuel efficiency and power range with a wider Atkinson efficiency range.
7. Direct fuel injection to improve combustion efficiency.
8. Lower power, control electronics and reduced, vehicle overhead.
9. Lighter weight body: hood, doors, seats, and interiors.
10. Smaller, lighter traction battery (aka., 'Prius c')
11. Improved control laws during cold-start operation
12. Rename PWR to "CR mode" with 10.9 sec 0-60 mph performance(*)

Well this is my short list but good enough for now.

Bob Wilson

* - for CR reports, it also inflates special 'comfy chair' seat pads and activates noise canceling audio system.