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Ford C Max, Prius killer?

Discussion in 'Ford/Lincoln Hybrids and EVs' started by UTBuckeye, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. Quentin

    Quentin Member

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    Wouldn't all Cmax sales be conquests since the Cmax is in the first model year here? Hehe
     
  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Conquest sales mean from another auto maker. The two main cars traded in for a c-max is prius and honda crv.

    If a c-max is a conquest of a prius, then it negatively impacts fuel economy. If instead it is a conquest of a crv, it helps the US reduce oil. As a net c-max sales should reduce relative oil usage. Any conquest helps Ford's top line, bottom line calculations are tougher.
     
  3. Quentin

    Quentin Member

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    My joke about how Craig worded it "another vehicle" instead of "another manufacturer" was lost on your. Hence the "hehe".
     
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  4. jnadke

    jnadke Junior Member

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    Ah, yes.

    Somewhere along the line, unverified data from a user-entered site became scientifically accurate. Not to mention said site doesn't verify users actually own said car (there are a few fishy entries, such as one user that owns 5 cars), and the sample size isn't statistically significant (39 people!?).

    But I will pass your revolutionary findings onto the scientific journals.


    Seriously, anyone who looks at fuelly for "proof" is foolish. It's almost winter! You're comparing cars that have had 4 seasons of data to a car that is in the worst gas mileage seasons.


    The Prius in the winter only gets 43 MPG by most accounts. Notify the EPA!
     
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  5. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    well lmao! :)


    On a side note, you may start seeing complaints on the Fusion Hybrid with poor MPG. Some drivers are easily getting 44, while others barely eek out 35, I happen to be one of the latter. I easily get EPA in my 2010 FFH, but no matter how I drive the new one, 35 appears to be what it is.

    And I may have found out why, just working to get it confirmed.

    The tires that came on my car are Goodyear Eagles, not sure the exact model, but may be RS-A. These are the same EXACT tires I had on my 2010 Sport. I looked up the OE tires for the 2013 FFH on Tirerack, and it came back with only one tire, the Michelin Energy Saver A/S. So there is a good possibility that some cars left the factory with the incorrect tires mounted on them, which will explain the descrepencies in MPG.


    I don't know if this will relate to C-max MPG, but you never know.
     
  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Wow that is good to know, and a black eye on the ford execution, but something they can easily correct.

    If that is the case, the good service thing would be to offer to swap tires to the correct one, or give you money back.

    On a cynical note about fuelly, I wonder how many people that put winter tires on submit to fuel.
     
  7. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    I put the inquiry to my dealer, they have been pretty good at things like this and I should have something from them soon.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What is your tire size? I found this info at blueovalforums.com.

    Fusion S - 215/60R16 95H Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max
    Fusion SE - 235/50R17 96H Michelin Energy Saver AS
    SE upgrade - 235/45R18 94V Goodyear Eagle LS2
    Hybrid - 225/50R17 93V Michelin Energy Saver AS
    Hybrid upgrade - 235/45R18 94V Goodyear Eagle LS2
    Titanium - 235/45R18 94V Goodyear Eagle LS2
    Titanium upgrade - 235/40R19 96V Continental ContiProContact

    If stock on hand ran low at the factory for a part, they would just put in the upgrade part for no charge. I could've gotten a Scion with the upgraded stereo that way.
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    But a larger wheel with a higher rolling resistance tire is not a good upgrade for many hybrid buyers. 17s are big enough for many of us. Now if toyota had given me the 17s as a free upgrade from the 15s with the improved 5 trim steering rack that would be a different story.
     
  10. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    Hybrid upgrade - 235/45R18 94V Goodyear Eagle LS2

    These. They are not Green or LRR tires. Poor choice for a Hybrid.
    Had I known...... I priced out LRR replacements, $1200.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Entered the wrong digit on the calculator. These wheel and tire combos are nearly the same diameter.
     
  12. jnadke

    jnadke Junior Member

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    Yeah, I suppose this is the "hidden" penalty of upgrading to the 18" tires people don't realize.

    Michelin only makes the Energy Saver tires in the 235/50 of the 18" size.

    Best bet would be to go back to the dealer and see if they can swap out to the 17" rim.


    Cherry-picking on fuelly, someone who uses hypermiler terminology gets 55 mpg.
    Maximus (Ford C-Max) | Fuelly

    Far cry from the 60-65 hypermilers on the Prius get, but there is hope.
     
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  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    They were likely chosen for performance seeing how they are the tires on the 18" wheels for the non hybrid, and performance is the general reason for larger rims. Being smaller than the 17" overall, you can search for tires with taller sidewalls. That might widen your selection of tires.

    Try Fusion furoms. Perhaps you can find someone with 17" wheels and Michelins that will trade wheel sets with you.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    These are nearly an inch larger in diameter than the 235/45. If they would fit, not only would you get an LRR tire, but taller tires can shift the final ratio into a more efficient range. It's a simple trick some ecomodders use. Just need to keep the adjustment in mind for the odometer and speedometer.
     
  15. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I would worry the suspension would not be proper for a tire that much larger.

    Shifting the ratio will hurt acceleration more than it is likely to help fuel economy unless you do the majority of your miles at 70+ mph. That larger tire trick works best with a conventional transmission, though it may help on the energi as it has been moved in the other direction.
     
  16. Quentin

    Quentin Member

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    Consumer Reports calls out Ford for false Fusion, C-Max hybrid fuel economy claims



    What were you saying?

    I find it amusing you mention scientific when science says the Cmax ratings aren't realistic. Compared to the Prius v, the Cmax is much heavier, less aerodynamic (Cd and frontal area), wider tires, and a bigger, more powerful engine. Last time I checked with my ol' buddy physics, those are all detriments to fuel efficiency. If you think that tests are flawless and unable to be gamed, you're naive. That big battery and high speed electric motor are the perfect things to game a short, 11 mile test that doesn't regulate starting and ending battery level.

    I hate pulling the engineer card, but I studied aerospace engineering and mechanical engineering and I work with transmission testing equipment on a daily basis. I'm familiar with the science of these things.
     
  17. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    I didn't order the car, if I had, it would have been with the standard wheels and tires. It was what was on the lot, and I paid extra for them, and would lose out if they swapped to stock.

    I may go to Ford on this though, as it does pose a false advertising claim against them, considering the fact there is no disclaimer that the larger wheels can impact FE.

    In any case, taking a trip down to Florida next week, so after what will probably amount to 3000 miles, if I don't see any improvement, it is going to the dealer, and saying, dont give it back until they can prove it gets 47 MPG.

    It's bad enough how they tout the Ecoboost in the F150 gets 20 MPG, when in reality, only a very select model gets that, and the majority of them get far fewer MPG due to size, weight and gearing. There are a large number of owners quite pissed at Ford over that. I was one of them, I ranted so much Ford decided to extend my Warranty, JUST IN CASE! I got rid of the truck for the Fusion, but if it is only going to get 35 MPG, well, I would much rather have the Ecoboost Titanium.
     
  18. jnadke

    jnadke Junior Member

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    Bold move. Pulling the Engineer Card against another Engineer.

    I was trying to be objective. You know, what an Engineer is taught to do.


    Yes, weight, etc do matter, but engine efficiency (and to an extent drag) is the biggest offender.


    Any idiot can recognize that not only did the Prius Gen 2 go from 110 HP to 135 HP in the Gen3, but it went UP in gas mileage, primarily due to drag, engine and transmission efficiency improvements.

    Did I mention 2008 had a lower curb weight than the 2010? Yeah, go crawl back into your hole.
     
  19. Quentin

    Quentin Member

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    I said things "didn't look good" per the early data on Fuelly. You proceeded to make fun of it. I was being objective and looking at the data. CR says that things aren't looking good either.

    Why bother comparing a car first built in 2003 to one built in 2010? Shall we compare a RaZR to an iphone 5 next? Of course there will be efficiency gains despite engine and curb weight upsizing when you factor time into it. That is how technology works. The Cmax and Prius v are 2013 and 2012 designs respectively. That is far more comparable.
     
  20. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    How's that Aspergers thing working out for you?