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Ford Hybrids' Fuel Economy Failing To Live Up To EPA Ratings?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by jsfabb, Nov 20, 2012.

  1. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Please an unregulated website is what passes for good data now. Then you post things from said site, without any measure of valid data, weather, driver behavior. You may have noticed that honda has been sued for bad fuel economy on the civic hybrid, even though that site seems to make it seem in line. Well OK. Let's look at the point I was making using that bad data.

    Compare Side-by-Side

    The prius does better on tests than other cars. Here lets take the 2007 prius, the gen II was claimed to get much poorer than EPA if you didn't drive it differently.

    Here we go 46.4 average versus EPA combined 46 looks good, until you notice that the cars sticker was 55 mpg, and the low was 34 mpg - a difference of 21 mpg.

    We can compare it to the civic in 2007 with users getting 32.4 mpg, and the old sticker 33 mpg. The low on that civic was 23 mpg half the distance as the prius. The current fit gets 6.8 more mpg than its sticker on that site. If the point is toyota hybrids are bagging the test, you would think on that site they would at least do as well as the hondas in beating the self posted numbers.

    My point was not to attack the prius, it was simply to point out what the epa has been saying - the engine off miles give hybrids an advantage on the test.
     
  2. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    Ford will have problems down the road with these cars. The EPA on the 2010-12 FFH are more realistic and are easily obtainable. The new one, not so much. They are also saying the breakin is 6000 miles, then 10,000 miles, so who the hell knows if they have a clue.

    I talked to a corp rep today named Sandy. When I told her I have been driving Hybrids since 2007 and never had a problem meeting and exceeding EPA, she could care less, all she was concerned about was stating, its only an estimate. She also kept saying that to get those numbers you have to use the adaptive cruise control.

    Well, here is something that really confused me. Not all of their hybrids use Adaptive cruise, in fact, I dont even think the Cmax has it. Pretty sure she was supposed to say Eco Cruise.

    I also told her I test drove a Cmax on a cold windy day and easily got 38 in it on a short trip with a cold engine, but cant do that in the Fusion.

    She basically told me, so, you dont get what the sticker says, but the fuel test shows it is doing what it is supposed to, never mind the fact that I logged every mile and drop of gas put in the car since day one, and that I have records showing what kind of MPG it gets using the precious eco cruise. IOW we dont care, we got your money so screw off.
     
  3. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That's really sad. I take it the dealer didn't find anything wrong with your car. Does your state have a lemon law?
     
  4. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    yes on all cases. For the LL, 4 incidents in the shop for the same issue before I can file.
     
  5. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    lol...
     
  6. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    can you file lemon law complaint for low MPG though?
     
  7. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    according to all of real world data we have, Toyota built a car that can do 50 MPG for average joe.

    On the other hand, Ford built a car that CANT DO 50 MPG for average owner.

    If you cant see the difference, take off those coloring glasses. Supporting wrong just because it is from American company is simply wrong.
     
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  8. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    Don't know, if the brown stuff contacts the whirling steel, you never know if they may add a provision to the law regarding Hybrids.
     
  9. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    it is not just hybrids, many cars miss EPA's these days... but lemon law is usually used for them not being able to repair your car in time.
     
  10. HprDad

    HprDad Junior Member

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    Their so-called "real-world" city test seems more like a "real-extreme" city test, designed to get the lowest possible city mileage, not median or typical.
     
  11. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    You know you are just taking my words completely out of context.

    EPA test favors hybrids - source EPA
    Initial prius - see data - could not come close to epa data. All the magazines wrote about hybrids not performing if driven normally. EPA changed test but still favors hybrids because of ability to shut off engine.

    Toyota hybrids because they can not stay electric at higher speeds are only favored on the city test.

    New Fords because of higher electric speeds are favored on city and highway

    EPA highway test averages under 50mph, which favors less aerodynamic cars like SUVs. Prius liftback because of good aero does great on higher highway speeds. prius c, c-max, do not do so well here. That means if highway test were revised for higher speeds prius c would drop significantly, hihy may drop more, but c-max would drop the most.
     
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  12. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    There is no way in hell a Lemon law is going to apply to a consumer who is complaining that their car does not meet or exceed the Big sticker EPA number. Owners contemplating use of the Lemon law should look at their fuel economy sticker again. A *range* that covers *most* drivers is also published.
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    On the lemon law - not meeting EPA would not be a reason since YMMV. But acdii situation is different. It seems that his tires/alignment/other reasons may make it impossible to reach the sticker on the test. Ford should have to fix this under some of the lemon laws.

    If it is simply the tire/wheel combination it would not be covered under Texas's lemon law, but trying to return the car might cause a big enough stink with ford that they would need to give remediation.
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    How so ? All I have read is his arguments that he drove a Prius in the past and managed BIG number EPA, and now he cannot reach BIG number EPA in his Ford. That is hardly convincing evidence that a Ford defect exists.
     
  15. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Below, I have included a picture of part of the EPA car sticker. See that huge YMMV ???

    Car_Sticker.png
     
  16. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    He is an unhappy Prius owner getting substandard MPG with aftermarket wheels and non-OEM tire size. That is the color of his glasses.
     
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  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Sorry to pile on spwolf, but it is you who have judged Ford guilty without reasonable objective data.

    If the EPA tests the car and ends up with the results currently on the fuel sticker, then no legal or regulatory problem exists. Period.

    I'm getting fed up with hearsay from the court of public opinion. After the Prius community's trial over the stupidity of "defective" brakes, you should have learned a lesson and not participate in the same crap.

    Disclaimer: I have never owned a Ford. I am not a Ford apologist.
     
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  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    As pointed out, the EPA tests don't reach 50mpg. The info on the test procedures is on their site if you want to know. Putting it on the sticker with everything else will just lead to eye glazing.

    Ford isn't handling the PR well.

    I agree, except Ford introduced an Eco cruise(I think a Ford rep meant that instead of adaptive) with the new hybrids. It uses less aggressive throttle inputs than typical cruise controls. Perhaps even limited DWL.

    Cleanmpg reported the Hyundia does a pulse and glide between ICE and EV while cruising. Driving in a way that prevented that would reduce fuel economy. Ford may also do this. The programming may also be off.


    The EPA tests don't address SOC of hybrid traction batteries. The deeper discharge of the lithium over the NimH means the ability to EV will have a larger impact on the test. On top of that, the cars can be force charged before hand.

    My suggestion is that hybrids need to start the tests at mid or even minimum SOC.


    Regarding austingreen's comment about the Prius stretching for 50mpg. While the gen3 will get better economy than the gen2 for day to day driving. When hypermiled, the gen2 has the higher potential. That implies that Toyota squeezed most of the potential out of it for the tests.

    Aside, Toyota may design more for Japan's tests than American.
     
  19. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    is it hearsay when EVERYONE says the same thing?

    So either Ford gamed the EPA, or every C-Max and Fusion Hybrid is broken currently. Which one is it? Dealers say cars are fine and that owners need to learn how to drive or wait for 10,000 miles.

    We have Ford owners asking for help because they cant reach anywhere close to the numbers they reached with their previous hybrids, and then we have few of you guys telling them they are basically crazy and that they either dont know how to drive or that their tires are wrong and that this is just some big conspiracy aimed at Ford.
     
  20. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Have you really heard from every Ford hybrid owner ? Wow.

    I at least have never said the people complaining are "basically crazy" or that "they don't know how to drive."

    My guess (and I repeat: A GUESS) is that the EPA numbers do not match winter driving for most people. For all I know, maybe Ford illegally gamed the EPA, or gamed the EPA legally. All I'm saying is that the current evidence and charges are not convincing of anything.

    I'll become suspicious of Ford gaming the EPA test when enough owners report their annual data, and we find that the median of a reasonable approximation of a bell curve is less than the BIG sticker number that new cars present. Until then, all we have is tempest of a couple anecdotal reports.
     
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