Ford wants a new mileage standard

The numbers are skewed by the nature of the EPA test and the cold weather most 2013 C-Max owners have been going through. Fact of the matter is that the EPA test does not include high speed highway driving, but a more lenient 60mph highway driving portion. At those speeds the C-Max will most definitely get 47mpg, it's Achilles heel is it's aerodynamics which start to suffer above that speed.

I have the Energi model which is rated at 44/41 and it gets just at those numbers when I drive ~60mph. Mind you the Energi is rated lower since it's geared differently in order to allow the EV motor to run up to 85mph and it has an additional ~300lbs of weight to carry.

This is mainly what Ford is complaining about, the EPA might release numbers at ~60mph for fuel economy, but chances are that people are driving way faster, around 75mph or more even. Since Aerodynamic drag is a proportional to the square of velocity, this really hits the perceived efficiency rating of the car. This ends up screwing Ford since even though they played fair game with the EPA test, people still think they were scammed because they don't get the "advertised" numbers.

You can see here what the EPA's test methodology is, they seemed to have added some more realistic scenarios such as high speed driving and driving with the Climate Control system on. I'm not sure if Auto manufacturers are required to report these numbers though.
Detailed Test Information

 

vdek,
I'm skeptical about your argument since other cars (including hybrids) have drag designs as poor as the C-max, yet hit EPA and above on driver data contributed sites. The Lexus CT200h comes to mind as one example, the Prius vagon is another.

The EPA sticker number has a correction built-into it to account for some of the differences between the test and common driver habits/road conditions. If you want to know what the EPA *really* got, look at the CAFE result.

 

I get a billboard of camry hybrid 43 mpg. That's the main one I see, only showing city not combined mileage. I know some get mad at the non-hybrids showing only highway. The laws for advertising are different than for the stickers. I find the stickers fine with mpge, kwh/100 miles, mpg, range.

I've got to agree with you on advertising mpge without including range aer, and also mpg in cd. It should probably be banned to advertise only city or highway milage and not include combined at least as prominently. Let's not get mad at the epa for this as they put up a reasonable standard for comparison.

Its the FTC that regulates advertising claims, and its got a whole other rule book.
Nissan Leaf to get equivalent of 99 mpg - US news - Environment | NBC News

In other words the 2011 leaf got 73 mile combined epa, but could have advertised 96-110 miles if they had wanted to do so. Its not smart. I think ford has backlash even advertising the true numbers from the tests.

 

Does your EV mileage match what Ford stated for the CMAX-Energi?

If the Fusion gets 44 mpg hybrid and the 20 miles EV, it could give me 75 mpg total and I'd go for it.

I'm going to see if the Ford dealership will let me have the Energi for the weekend. Park there at night for a charge and then drive it during the day over two days.

 

Yes, it depends though on if you enable the Climate control and the weather and speed. I was getting ~19 miles in EV mode last month with the cold weather we were having, however now my indicator shows ~20miles which is what I get. Last week I took a trip to the city though and I ended up going about 26miles in EV mode, not by choice, there was just a lot of traffic so overall speed was relatively slow(~35mph). Enabling Climate control can bring that down, however you do have the option to preheat the car while it's plugged in on electric.

I have the C-Max Energi, not the Fusion btw.

 

iClaudius,
Last week I drove 135 miles in our Prius vagon mostly around 50 mph on country roads, and perhaps 6-8 miles of P&G. Meter ended up at 64.3 mpg.

My city driving is routinely over 60 mpg for routes of 20-30 miles round trip.

OTOH, my wife drives the car a lot over 70 mph, so the lifetime mpg is 48.8 mpg.

 

So you get better mpg(claimed 60mpg) in the Larger Prius V than 95% of drivers do in the smaller Prius? You also get better mpg than 100% of Prius V Drivers? Yah ok. Maybe going downhill with a tailwind.

 

I get the feeling you would not like to hear my fuel economy in our G2 Prius. LOL

After the 135 miles of country driving last week, I drove home -- about 165 miles on the highway. The tank is currently at 59 mpg for 400 miles. I can take a pic if you like; I think the Prius vagon's display is distinctive enough to identify.

 

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=371553

 

Ford wasn't complaining about the EPA testing when the Fusion and C-MAX first came out. I remember the negative campaign they ran against the Prius V over and over while they proudly advertised the 47mpg city and highway. Ford needs to admit fault and move on, instead of trying to blame others for their lies.
I put 17" wheels on my Prius and drive with a lead foot and I still manage a less than 10% lower advertized mpg, so screw you Ford First, you use EPA to mislead your customers and now you turn around and stab EPA in the back. I did have a soft spot for Ford before all these lies because they made the GT500 and they were the only one who was not part of the GM "Government Motors" bailouts fiasco, I guess I won't be buying "American" anytime soon.

 

vdek, just for you --
I'm always amused by people who assume just because they drive with poor fuel economy, it must be true for others

 

Yep, I posted the graph and link from cleanmpg.com just for him.

 

Again, I don't think Ford is complaining now, they are going along with what the EPA was saying about the test not accurately working with a car like the c-max. People here have quite profoundly forgotten, that the prius was at this exact point in 2005, with all the magazines saying you couldn't get epa mileage. You can fight the numbers, and say its the drivers, go go along with what the epa said a month ago, and agree the test does not work well with hybrids that can shut the engine off at higher speeds.

Really, not much controversy here, unless you think the test is perfect.

 

More Apples and Oranges.

The criticism of the Prius EPA in 2005 was when the Prius was rated 60 mpg city, 51 highway. The results were set so that the majority of US drivers would under-perform the sticker. The current sticker number is devised so that 2/3rds of US drivers obtain the rated fuel economy -- yet most if not close to all Ford C-max drivers fail.

The Prius hybrid family exceeds the expected 'real world' distribution; the Ford C-max fails miserably. This is NOT a 'hybrid' problem with the EPA, it is a C-max problem with the EPA.

Drivers like me that take advantage of P&G easily trounce the car sticker EPA of the Prius, and I beat CAFE in city driving too. Why are we not seeing similar reports from Ford drivers ? I know that at least a few Ford C-max owners that post here who avail themselves of P&G still fail to see high fuel economy.

The poor showing of the C-max remains a mystery.

The stand that poor Ford is just agreeing with EPA is nonsense. Nothing prevented them from reporting and advertising more modest fuel economy to align reality with expectations. Instead Ford decides to jump on the EPA bandwagon that the test is not hybrid specific to excuse their poor results and smear all hybrids along the way.

F them.

 

I'm not trying to defend the EPA, no test will ever be perfect. America is a big place with different driving conditions, and I agree the test is dated and cannot keep up with new cars. The test IMO is just a base line for consumers. I'll never blame the EPA or Toyota for the way I drive.
What I was upset at Ford about was how they USED the EPA to sell cars and attack the Prius, and then turn around and throw EPA's test under the bus when the consumers they mislead sued them. Nasty way to do business in my book. Just because the EPA gave you the test result, doesn't mean they cannot lower the numbers to match what Ford's own engineering and testing team got for their MPG numbers. Don't tell me Ford never had their own tester drive the C-MAX themselves.

 

History - Prius, insight, and Honda civic hybrid all got much higher epa ratings than customers got. EPA changed ratings. Customers sued Honda, and lost (Hyundai cheated and lost, but that is different)
EPA evaluating how it rates gas mileage for hybrids

I can understand you criticizing ford for using EPA ratings in its commercials. I can understand people criticizing ford for making excuses about how to drive and get the rated mileage. I think that is bad also. I don't think its throwing the EPA under the bus, to agree with it, that new standards may be needed for these cars.

This article was written a month ago.

Those two law firms sued 4 other car companies before ford. The epa does a much better job with testing than its European and Japanese counterparts. Its likely the c-max has already passed the epa test, and gotten high figures, but the epa is not happy that these don't get reflected in the real world. Changed tests would also likely reduce mpg claims of SUVs, as they likely would increase the average speeds light vehicles are tested. THe current high speed test goes to 80mph but only averages 48.

 

I understand Ford was not the first and only company that made this mistake. However, in some ways that makes their ad. campaign seem even more devious, because they have seen what mistakes other companies like Toyota made almost 10 years before. Instead of learning from other's mistake, they apparently tried even harder to deceive their customers with a higher margin of error and centered their ads. on those results.

I wonder what the real numbers were for the Gen3 Prius through the EPA test. If there is a problem with the test for Hybrid vehicles, then I assume the Prius gets much higher MPG on the test?

 

I agree it was a bad ad, and likely will backfire, but the car hasn't been out long. Plenty of time to recover. I normally just skip through ads on my dvr, but saw one c-max ad. Speaking of bad creapy ads.

Behind The Disturbing Ad Campaign For The 2012 Toyota Prius
What idiot at Toyota thought that was a good idea?

We have the real numbers from the test on prius and c-max. If you are asking what in the test is biased for prius, probably the city portion. The highway portion is biased for c-max, but not prius liftback because the c-max can glide at higher speeds. It may actually be biased against the prius, as the prius has a low cd, and higher speeds would favor it. On the epa highway test they are separated by 1 mpg, but its likely they will be separated by 8 mpg in actual highway driving from the clean mpg tests depending on speed. Keep a portion of the test pegged at 70 mph, and you may get more accurate readings. SUV makers, ford and Toyota included might not like that though for their profitable SUVs, but a sustained high speed, along with testing SOC would be likely changes to the tests.

 

The point is, it is very easy to get MUCH better than EPA by simply driving slower (60mph) like you indicated is needed to reach EPA in the CMax. Driving at 60mph nets 60+mpg in a Prius Liftback or 52+ in a Prius v.

For those PriusChat members that like to make their commute as efficient as possible without a plug, we put together this list. You have to have over 60mpg to a tank to even make the list.

Top 20 - MPG Record Holders | PriusChat

Aerodynamics really do hurt economy but that is not what is killing the CMax. The Ford programming which causes the CMax to perform a pulse & glide technique during freeway driving is a big reason why EPA numbers are so hard to reach without driving so slow. Wayne and others have tried to drive at the threshold of engining this programming and their mpg shot way up. Unfortunately it takes a very attentive driver with a delicate foot to achieve this. The 17" wheels don't help either.

This leads me to to believe there is hope that the CMax and Fusion can be fixed fairly easily. If so then Ford may have a winner on their hands. Otherwise, the CMax Hybrid is just a bloated Focus with a goofy cargo area.