1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Forests of the World

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  2. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    tochatihu likes this.
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    A hug for a fellow hugger :)
     
  4. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    The John Muir fan club.
     
  5. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Muir of Hetch Hetchy. Oh well...
     
  6. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    Yes, that one. Dam, you're not a fan?
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Y'all have suffered long enough without more thoughts on forests :)

    Almost all trees will die if their rooting soil becomes waterlogged. Excellent places to view this are where new lakes a 'anthro' formed in forested areas. Perhaps obviously the problem is that roots need oxygen and it diffuses much more slowly (like 100k times) when soil pore spaces are full of water.

    Yet there are some trees that manage with wet feet. Familiar examples are bald cypress and mangroves. We'll skip rice (for its lack or treeness), but all these develop specialized structures (I'll leave their names off the exam) that bring air (oxygen) down to those gasping roots. These structures have unusual features which, being nearly wood, can become fossilized. And then viewed at a time convenient to humans, even X millions of years later.

    Going somewhere with that. Original forests, aka 'coal forests', about 350 millions of years ago. As mentioned about page 1, some of those trees did not decompose with well-known results. But first they had to grow. If as often supposed these were on waterlogged soils, there would be clear fossil records of 'breathing roots' in Lepidodendron. I have not seen any. It still seems mysterious.

    So when you think of forests (or kill houseplants by overwintering) give a thought to odd wet ones, that may early on have been very very common.

    Seasonally flooded forests in Brazil called varzea. Because it's Brazil, there are many species of trees. One could collect wide diversity of roots and see if they all (most?) possessed those structures in question. Not yet done either it seems.
     
  8. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    #68 JimboPalmer, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    tochatihu likes this.
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Those are they :) At low water you can see the knees.

    Swamps are pretty nifty (opinion), unless reptiles and insects view you as a resource. Water just runs out of geography before it gets back to the ocean.
     
  10. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    The boardwalk is good about keeping you separated from the reptiles, nothing deters the bugs. (for those interested in the reptiles, there is a 2 1/2 mile paddling trail for canoes and kayaks that will put you 15 feet lower)
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Bring canoe in your time machine. Set dial for -350 million years. Canoe through flooded forests before there were crocodilians or mosquitoes.

    That entire time from -230 to -65 million years ... don't go there (then). Forests were no doubt excellent, but too many dragons.
     
  12. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  13. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    If you are American, it is likely every Avacado you have ever seen is from a single seed raised by a mailman named Hass.
    Hass avocado - Wikipedia
     
    tochatihu likes this.
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    There are so many such histories and it would be great if others mention their favorites.

    Hass was first (of many) patented trees.
     
  15. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,039
    10,013
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Does this mean that both crops are near-monocultures, susceptible to disease-induced catastrophe?
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    In general 'commercial' tree species are more genetically narrow than commercial crops. Large ag companies are trying to catch up (if that is the correct term), but a lot of annual crop growing remains beyond their influence.

    As trees just stand there for decades, it is plausible that they are more apparent to viral, bacterial, fungal and insect challenges.

    For all commercial crops, such challenges are usually addressed after they have gotten well underway. Sorry about that.. Listing salient examples is gloomy and I'd rather not.
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,973
    3,501
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Stimulated by reading some Wally Broecker today, I mention a rarely appreciated aspect of trees, and its potential role in studying wood decomposition.

    Atmospheric testing of thermonuclear weapons peaked in 1962 (it was about one bang per week but maybe this is widely known). Along with that, atmospheric levels of carbon-14 (radioactive isotope) increased 5- to 10-fold globally. It is now going down, because of ocean mixing not radioactive decay.

    This means all trees alive now and already growing in 1962 (that's a lot of trees) have several years of easily detectable elevated C14 in wood. Y'all know how trees expand radially. May also know how plywood is made, peeling away layers with big machines in wood-product factories hither and yon.

    Let's just say you rent one of these factories for a week. Let them peel as they will. You with Geiger counter scan the peeling, and when hot stuff comes out, it gets set aside for your use. Rest becomes plywood as scheduled. Depending on funding, you end up with kilograms or tons or more labeled wood. As much as you can pay for.

    There is no other obvious way to track how C atoms or C-containing molecules move into later organisms through decomposition. I know that not many people are very interested in that, but this is the way.

    As an aside, the complicated steps of photosynthesis were all revealed by C14 labeling. It does the job.

    Is there a sense of urgency? Not much. Half life of C14 is >5700 years. Many fewer '1962 trees' will be alive (say) 200 years later, compared to now, so that factor dominates. They'll burn, fall down, or get taken into product streams.

    Do people know? Yes. More will know when I write an article for some journal including more details. Even if I don't, someone else will.

    Do people care? Perhaps not as much as I'd hope :) To put things into perspective, annual human carbon burning for energy is now about 10 petagrams per year. Annual wood decomposition (just laying around in forests) is also about 10 petagrams per year. Leaf and conifer-needle decomposition is about 50 petagrams per year. Last largest one is studied much more, including with active isotopic labeling.

    Wood decomposition is slower, involves different critters, and we know not as much about where that carbon goes. If people desire to shed light on that, geopolitical events around 1962 accidentally provided the key.
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,606
    8,036
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    actually ..... American may very well have nothing to do with your avocado. Around here - south OC - (as well as San Diego County) there were 1,000's of Acres not too long ago. The variety was originally from South Africa. Much bigger than hass ... the maluma.
    Maluma (avocado) - Wikipedia not that I would ever pick either out of my salads.

    Unfortunately, the climate this fruit thrives best in, is also where the human species likes to dwell. Thus ..... bulldoze the trees all down, build tilt-ups & condos, & start pouring for asphalt roads. Such a shame.
    .
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,597
    11,224
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2012
    2,447
    1,695
    0
    Location:
    Rocklin, CA
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    ----USA----
    Got a grad student who needs a novel dissertation subject?