1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Forests of the World

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Most interest in forests relates to living trees. Or with what you can build from wood, or how warm fires are. No regrets :) However when a book comes along that describes how sugars and rarer chemicals in wood flavor (even define) foods and drinks, it is my job to give notice. Here it is, printed on paper that was trees probably last year:



    Or one could use kindle (TM)
     
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Fires in Amazon forests are in the news. this year's season can be compared with others since 2003 here:

    Forecast - Global Fire Emissions Database

    (tip: mouse pointer over years below graphs to highlight)

    See in some regions fire #s equal 2005 which was a strong drought. I really don't know if this year has been very dry. These are initiated for land clearing, because soybeans and cows.

    Brazil President is getting media blame over this.

    Also mentioning a 2018 article about 1400-year drought history

    https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2017WR021788

    Showing (Figure 5b) that multi-year drought were common there in earlier centuries.
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
  5. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,314
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I have not heard too much about the reason for the Brazil fires (except farming).
    I am thinking it is biofuels because it so profitable to make ethnaol from sugar cane.
     
  6. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    There is also a recent article on National Geographic web site about Amazon fires. Asserted there that 2019 has not been a dry year.
     
  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Photosynthesis in forests generates a lot of oxygen. Decomposition in forests consumes it. If forest burns instead, it get consumed to the same extent*, but thousands of times faster.

    This is important to realize when talking about metaphorical lungs. So, read this and get you fix of fixed oxygen.

    Destructive Amazon Fires Do Not Threaten Earth's Oxygen, Expert Says - Scientific American

    Aha! it is the buried undecomposed organic matter that accounts for Earth's oxygenated atmosphere. To put a finer point on it, the coal, oil, and geologically stored methane that is not burned.

    So, while there are many excellent reasons not to burn forests, oxygen is not one of them.

    *not quite to the same extent. Some burnt forest gets converted to charcoal (biochar in 'the business') that decomposes thousands of times slower than plant debris. During its long residence in soils, it can enhance soil fertiity. Burnt forests are complicated...
     
  8. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,314
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    France president is the person saying the oxygen problem, so this exposes him as an eco-alarmist without true undertanding of the situation. If Europe or USA is buying Brazil ag products such as ethnaol, they should stop buying them.

    What I am about to say sounds counter-intuitive to political correctness, but Brazil should be using more fossil fuel, and less burning down of the Amazon rain forest for ethanol.
     
  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    10,964
    8,840
    0
    Location:
    New England
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    So, I tap red maple trees ever early spring for our year supply of maple syrup. We do not have sugar maple trees in our property. The sugar contents are lower in the red maple but to me, the flavor is much better than store bought maple syrup from sugar maple. I have also tapped some birch trees for syrup, but that takes waaaaay longer to boil down. Intense flavor some may like but some may not.

    DSC33177.JPG
     
    SFO and tochatihu like this.
  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,750
    11,328
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Things are never simple.

    China burns a lot of it coal. It sucks, but China doesn't have natural gas or petroleum to use instead. They even have plant turning coal into diesel. Brazil might have the same situation in terms of energy sources.

    Then the recent slash and burning may have nothing to do with ethanol. Our trade spat with China has them going elsewhere for things like soybeans.

    Birch makes the best beer.
     
  11. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    10,964
    8,840
    0
    Location:
    New England
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Use birch instead of hops? Humm, I may have to try that next time I brew my own beer.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,750
    11,328
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Now I'm craving this.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    10,964
    8,840
    0
    Location:
    New England
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Forest photosynthesis gets allocated to three main areas. One part leaf production (or else there would be no photosynthesis), one part wood production (gotta push those leaves up because everybody else is doing it), and two parts to below ground. The last makes roots, their exudates to soil, and their 'payments' to fungi for delivering nutrients and water. I thought y'all might be interested in how that pie gets sliced.

    There are surely variations in those fractions across forests of the world. I just started working on that.
     
    Salamander_King likes this.
  15. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    10,964
    8,840
    0
    Location:
    New England
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I never was too interested in plant physiology during my college. But now 30+ years later, I am curious to learn how the tree converts starch to simpler sugars (assume they are mostly sucrose?) in the sap only during early spring. The tapping maple tree is only possible during a very short period of the year. Although this happens sometimes during Feb to Apr in our region, the precise timing is quite variable. The rate of sap flow and sugar content and flavor of resulting syrup can be affected by the timing of the tapping. If I miss this short 3-4 weeks of tapping season, I miss yearly supply of maple syrup.
     
  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Many trees make early spring leaves by sending up carbohydrates from fat roots. Timing, initiation, and hormonal signals for this may be (sorta kinda) known, but I don't read that literature. It is a wrinkle in global stem/root carbon trafficking (in the eyes of some).

    Plant enzymes for starch/sugar conversions are not rare and not 'costly'. Strings and sheets of sugar polymers lay open to hydrolytic enzymes without steric interference. I don't get excited thinking about that stuff.

    Perhaps more interesting is that if shallow soils are still frozen, only deeper roots can supply liquid water to send carbohydrates up for new-leaf making. That is also what tappers tap, so if you are in the biz, pile snow around stems of your tap trees mid winter. Makes a blanket so shallow soils won't freeze.
     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    "I never was too interested in plant physiology during my college"

    This is exactly the problem. Students get lectures on and exams related to simple-to-test ideas, while fun subtle things dwell beyond your Profs. Many are simply not up to the task. But forests sing and dance like crazy and it is extremely interesting.
     
  18. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2015
    10,964
    8,840
    0
    Location:
    New England
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I wouldn't call it is the problem. Everyone has their own interest, some interested in forest and its ecosystem may be very excited to learn plant physiology. My undergraduate degree was in biology. I had to take Botany 101 as a requirement, but my interest was in the animal kingdom, and later on a very small subset of animal biology.
     
  19. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Perhaps I protesteth too much. But making science as boring as possible seems quite widespread to me.

    Salamanders are lucky to have ya.

    I had a plant physiology prof (not named here) who was sure that negative pressures in plant vascular systems were actually negative. :rolleyes:
     
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    8,995
    3,507
    0
    Location:
    Kunming Yunnan China
    Vehicle:
    2001 Prius
    Global forest leaf litter (I prefer to say retired photosynthetic machinery) is known from many local studies. Data collection is easy, but results, being so many, no longer appeal by novelty for mid-and-high-level journal publication.

    How well is it known? Previously published summaries have missed much by poor search strategies. My gang of litterbugs are now being crushed by responses to our data requests. Next crushing stage will be creating and populating data structures. This has been troubled me for years, and right now it is moving forward, into a vast unknown of can we do it well?

    What does it mean? Static ecological hypotheses relate to what forests are where, and what where means. Dynamic ecological hypotheses relate to how forest structures may be modified by humans, and how other anthropogenic changes (T, CO2 and nitrogen supply) change forests.

    I guess most readers here are in N hemisphere autumn and raking fallen leaves off their estates. Spare a moment to consider what that trash represents.
     
    Merkey likes this.