Free Public Chargers: Leaf Abuse

Nobody made that claim John. Nobody knows what Toyota will do in the future.
What I, and I suspect others, are saying, is that Toyota is no longer leading as they did, and do, with the hybrids.

By their own actions, they are dragging their heels at best. At worst, they are spreading FUD about plug in vehicles.

Toyota used to be a leader in the industry that I looked up to, now they are a follower at best, and an obstructionist at worst.

I don't support obstructionists. I will happily change my tune when Toyota introduces the best plugin vehicle out there and makes it available nationwide.

Right now, I suspect I have a long wait in front of me. We will see if they are a fast follower, or if they only come kicking and screaming to the party.

Interesting. I find it far more reasonable than many forums.
Good discusions, people actually testing things out and trying to validate or disprove claims.

Yes, you get the occassional trolls and over enthusiastic supporters, I haven't seen a site without those types yet.

As for the supercharger issues, it is rather humorous. The whole hubbub started when Musk mentioned that Tesla had sent out a couple reminder notes that the SC network was for long distance travel, to a few people abusing the system.

All of a sudden people seem to feel they know that this is a huge issue and no one ever should use the SC unless they are on a trip.

For all these people know, Tesla sent a friendly note to two individuals that were parked in a SC spot for 2 hours.

It is rather hilarious to watch people, both on that forum and here, overreact and make unbased assumptions.

 

So what you are saying by the following is that you don't have patience for the next-gen rollout? Fine, but realize it gives the impression of telling us the future, one without any plug-ins from Toyota.

Whatever the case, there's no effort being made to deal with the thread topic. Downplay isn't a solution either. Until there is a clear message of purpose, the problem only gets worse.

Again, we know Gen-2 offerings will change perception by ordinary consumers. How will actual owners react... especially those who are still driving a Gen-1 plug-in vehicle?

 

i'm buying one asap. let the pre ordering, begin!

 

No John, you keep reading words into my comments that aren't there.
I am not impatient for the roll out of the next gen PiP. I am impatient for the roll out of the first gen PiP.
As for the next Gen, due to Toyota's statements on plugin vehicles, I am not impatient for it at all. I will simply believe it when I see it.

The "problem" as you put it, is not getting worse, it is getting better. More people are becoming aware of the benifits of plugin vehicles. A broader group of reasons for buying electric is appearing.

True, it isn't happening as quickly as we would all like, but it is happening. If Toyota would join in with full force, rather than timidly dipping its toes in the water, it would happen faster.

But if they want to wait to the the leaders pave the way, and then be a fast follower, that is fine. It is probably a safer business position and they need risk less.
It is a perfectly reasonable position to take. It is just a change from the leadership role I saw Toyota take with hubrids.

 

i think that's the issue, we expect too much from toyota, because of one move they made in a hundred years.

 

What does "leadership" mean? Note how that ties directly to purpose and their have been many, many disagreements about how it should be measured. That lack of clarity is a big deal.

As for the impatience for the first gen rollout, why in the world are you still dwelling on that past? Even the Volt enthusiasts, as stubborn as a few particular individuals were, let their first gen go and looked forward. Join us in the Gen-2 discussions already. Geez!

On last time, what should we be promoting for public charger use? Again, that's purpose.

Are they are a convenience, a necessity, a reward, a tool to draw patronage, or what?

 

i doubt anyone buys an ev because there is free charging. once they have one though...

 

The wrench Toyota has put upon themselves is going all out about Fuel Cell vehicles while simultaneously reversing direction on PiP and EV progress. Toyota has always been a very strong manufacturing company whose engineering strength was making extremely reliable and solid vehicles. The Prius was a surprising jump in engineering accomplishments while maintaining the manufacturing excellence. Being conservative on further engineering developments in the PHEV and/or EV areas would not cause as much irritation. Unfortunately Toyota is really trying to force the FCV on the consumer using politics and questionable marketing to more or less foist a technology a lot more limiting than PHEV and EVs.

 

FCV is a product of many automakers, clearly a long-term work-in-progress not intended in any way to be rolled out in large volume.

We'll be getting plug-in options far sooner. Affordable batteries offering enough energy-density to actually compete with traditional vehicles are on the way.

Where is the conspiracy?

What amazes me is the deliberate effort to not pay attention to the traditional vehicles. Those strong sales should be a concern. Instead, there's this on-going pointless argument about leading. It completely misses the point... and the market.

 

Toyota is the automaker with multiple recent press releases and events showing off their FCV, and how it is the first production one available for sale, and is the future of the private automobile. Allied with the hydrogen lobby, they also pushed for higher ZEV credits for FCVs from CARB, who has also reduced the the ZEV credits for BEVs, and has none for PHEVs.

During the lead ups to this, Toyota's marketing of the Prius PHV has been "timid". Then they let their partnership with Tesla expire. They won't need a BEV, because the new credits for FCVs mean they can make fewer ZEV cars. Feeling threatened by Tesla and BMW, Lexus puts out some anti-plug in ads.

Between those ads and the Mirai press releases, Toyota says nothing major of their plug in plans, beyond delaying the release of the next Prius PHV. With that, a negative view of Toyota in regards to plug ins shouldn't be a surprise.

Who's not paying attention to them? There just isn't much to say beyond the American public has a short memory, and gas is cheap.

The good news is that regulations and forward thinking within the automakers mean the traditional vehicles bought today are more fuel efficient than the ones of yesteryear. Today's F150 V* has the same EPA rating as the last model's V6 Ecoboost. GM and FCA have also upped their game in regards to truck efficiency. Which is great, because they are the big sellers in the segment that doesn't have a hybrid option. Then things most thought were hybrid only are showing up on ICEVs; start/stop and regenerative braking.

But people here want to see more hybrids being bought. Only two ways that is going to happen. Gas prices have to rise, or the hybrid has to drop or disappear. The MKZ hybrid starts at the same price as the ICE one. The hybrid gets 30% to 40% of sales. It would probably be more if AWD was available on it. Most of the other hybrids with ICEV siblings only get about 10%. If the car companies were more daring, we would see more hybrids for the same price as an optional engine upgrade.

 

As consumers, our perceptions of what a manufacturer is/should or not be doing (and why) are just that. "Normal cars" are sold to pay the bills and make money. The other 5% +/- as it relates to this discussion, are those same manufactures attempts to comply with current and future laws and to carefully and slowly look for feasible future replacements for the current bread winners. We have the technology to do do almost anything, but with a guestimate of 7 Billion people in the world and maybe upwards of 1.2 billion cars and light trucks used by said, it going to take a lot more than a few experimental alternative vehicles and personal opinions to solve this dilemma before petroleum is too expensive or gone. Know this...what ever eventual solution(s) happen, manufacture's can not and will not do it without infrastructure and profit.

Anyway...back to topic at hand. No free public charging and consistent enforced laws will "help" solve the charger/space "hogging" problem, it won't stop it though. Just look at handicap parking violations, people parking by the red line in front of grocery store...the list goes on. This is life and human nature folks, deal with it and plan accordingly.

 

There is clearly an element of truth to what you say, but there is also a missing element you left out. Regulations and pollution elimination exert just as much pressure on car makers as does profitability. The 5% today is coming about due to legal requirements to make cars that do no pollute in a number of states, not because all automakers want to donate money to alternative vehicles. I would also point out that "a few experimental alternative vehicles" is a bit misleading. What exactly is the biggest shortcoming of the Telsa Model S? Range too short, fuel too expensive, too many bugs, what? The essential answer is how expensive it is....and maybe that is a factor of mass production, not hardly any real limitations of electric propulsion.

 

"The other 5% +/- as it relates to this discussion, are those same manufactures attempts to comply with current and future laws and to carefully and slowly look for feasible future replacements for the current bread winners."

"a few experimental alternative vehicles"...relative to ICE and with no consistent solution(s).

"not hardly any real limitations of electric propulsion"...The infrastructure and technology made available to us now is not one that allows you to just charge "anywhere-anytime-fast" like we gas-n-go now.


I would like to add...regardless the timeline and results, those making these decisions are way above any of our pay grades. As consumers, we get what they give us, when they give it to us...for a price of course.

 

I disagree. Consumers, as a whole, decide exactly what is succeful and what is not. And businesses will make what the consumers are buying.
Individually, our purchases may not have much influence. As a whole, it is the main deciding factor determining what manufacturers make.

 

Respectfully...as it relates to changing the world from petroleum run vehicles to something else...that's above even your pay grade.

 

I used to pay attention and even sometimes use free (never "pay for" public charging spots in the 1st 18 months of PiP ownership. Now, three years in, meh... I'm happy enough to home-charge at L2 and let the road trip mileage take care of itself. I think I used my OEM Toyota charger once in the last six months during travels.

 

the only negative discussion of toyota future ev plans are about a dozen people here. the other 7 billion people care not.

 

Lexus is a totally different entity than Toyota. Coming from the same corporation and sharing the same resources does not make their customers the same.

So, it is inappropriate to think both will have the same approach. The audiences are very different. In fact, it's as absurd as applying truck selling logic to car buyers.

This is why I keep pointing out the need to understand economics better. It makes no sense combining unrelated groups. Yet, people keep doing it anyway.

One is targeted at middle-market, the other luxury.

 

I once again disagree.
No, I can't make the choice for the world.
But each and every one of us CAN influence the outcome.
Sure, a CEO of a major manufacturer can have a more immediate influence. However, each individual does have a level of influence.
The amount of influence depends upon money, effort, and networking.
Those with a ton of money, have little to no influence if they put forward no effort.
Likewise, someone with no money, can have influence with effort.

 

So, Zythryn "likes" anything anti-Toyota!

It's not like Elon Musk, Tesla "feeling threatened" and expresses that in press interviews. We can favor one side and completely ignore what the other side has said.

Tesla founder Elon Musk says ‘fuel cell is so bullsh*t’ | Digital Trends