Full thoughts on the new Prime (quick hits)

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by inferno, Oct 4, 2016.

  1. civicdriver06

    civicdriver06 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    797
    324
    0
    Location:
    Germany
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Does anyone know how the new "charge mode" works ?
    Does that mode keep the car constantly in ice mode,or is it a special kind of hybrid mode that tries to keep the car as efficiently as it can in this mode while still trying to load the battery as much as possible at the same time ?
    I think Danny said fuel efficiency goes into the 40s, so that doesn't sound so bad to me .
     
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    40,214
    11,726
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    Agree. The price is definitely attractive and as much as I like the solar panel option, I think the 5-seat option and/or (preferably "and") lower cargo floor would be more appealing to a greater number of people. It can hit the Volt on both fronts - "real" 5th seating position and larger cargo area (similar to Liftback). The PiP had a flat floor only because Toyota compromised on the battery and shrinking it to 4.4 kWh. It could be 5.x with a 1" raised floor.

    With the Prime, I'm guessing AER was the more appealing factor to compete with the Volt so TMC said, "alright, to get x miles, we need this battery size which requires a raised floor". Danny also mentioned this in his main Prime release post, talking about his conversations with various people.

    Hopefully increased battery density can allow for a lower floor and 5th passenger seating. Increased efficiency can help gain a few extra miles too.

    In Japan, it is. They run on 100V so it'll take a long time to charge up a Prime. Hence a CHAdeMO option is appealing. In addition, if they only use the car on weekends (and commute by public transit during the week), you're essentially driving on solar power.

    Yes. It will charge the battery continuously. In one scenario (for the Japanese), they suggest that if you take public transit on weekdays and use the car on weekends, you'd be essentially driving on solar power for that 15km (assuming 3km average daily charge. Max is 6.x km)
     
    inferno and Trollbait like this.
  3. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    717
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    If they only use the car on weekends and drive it only for 15 km (average) per weekend...If they park the car not in a garage but outside and not in a shaded area during weekdays...if...These are marketing people talk.
    Sorry, I disagree.
    100V is similar to L1 in the US with similar charging time which can be easily accomplished at night.
    Solar roof will also be offered in Europe where 230V is standard and charging time is 3+ hours from a household outlet.
    PV technology is still not there so an area of a car roof can make a considerable dent on EV range, however, it is a start and that's good.
    At this stage, I see it as an efficiency extender. If it will be offered in sunny Israel at reasonable premium I will surely consider it.
     
  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,832
    3,523
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    No, it's not. The standard US plug is 120V, 15A for a theoretical 1800W. The plug being discussed here is 100V, 6A for a theoretical 600W.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  5. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    717
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    Do you have a reference to the 6A limits?
     
  6. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,832
    3,523
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Actually, I read it here, so I don't have first-hand information.

    Found it:

     
    #46 Lee Jay, Oct 11, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
    drash likes this.
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,419
    6,295
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Danny mentioned it in the thread about the event in Japan for the Prime.
    Level 1 charging at 100v, 6amp will take about 10 hours or so(Danny was quoted a more precise time). Residents with this level of electric service also can't support level 2 charging.
     
  8. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    40,214
    11,726
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Technology
    There are 10-15 year old cars with < 30,000km. Yes, they don't drive often and the cars are parked outside. You have a garage if you're a wealthy person, especially in a metropolitan area.

    Otherwise, you need to apply for a permit before you can purchase a car like the Prius Prime to prove you actually have a parking spot big enough to hold the car.

    Of course if you're in the rural areas, then you probably have more space and probably a garage.
     
  9. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    717
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    Thanks for all who chimed-in with answers.
    I am still without a solid proof that the 'poor' Japanese, or a meaningful portion of them, are stuck with 600W power outlets at their homes (how many of them are allowed per home?) forever without the possibility of upgrading - as some are stating here based on a hearsay of a hearsay with a language barrier in the middle. What about kitchen and other home appliances? No, thank you I cannot afford them.
    A person (or family) with such limitations is not a candidate for having an electrical driven car unless he has a fast charging option very near and the solar roof will not be the deal maker for him.
    Yes - they drive less than the average American.
    Yes - their way of living is completely different than the American way.

    I still see the solar roof mainly as an efficiency extender at this stage.
     
  10. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,832
    3,523
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    You do have proof that the level 1 charging in Japan is 100V 6A since that Toyota document linked said so.
     
    Trollbait and taigebu like this.
  11. taigebu

    taigebu New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2016
    4
    7
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Japanese people are not stuck with 600W power outlets... The 6A charging on the Prime in Japan is a Toyota limitations. Why ? Because a majority of the people there only have a 30-40A breaker in their homes/apartments. My sources you ask ? Many friends of mine living there confirmed by many articles on the net.
     
    #51 taigebu, Oct 12, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  12. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    717
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    Yes, it proves just this, and the answer may be in the document itself. It says something "so you do not need to upgrade the wires" or somethin like this.
    Thank you, it make sense. My question is: can they upgrade their home connection to 200V if they want? As someone here said that they cannot (or not allowed?).
     
  13. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,832
    3,523
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Housing in Japan - Utilities - Electricity

    "Most Japanese dwellings are connected to the nation's power grid by using 3-wire system with standard phase-neutral voltage of 100 V. 100 V AC outlets are located throughout the home for general use. Few 200 V outlets may also exist for connecting induction heating stove or large air conditioner. The line frequency is 50 Hz in eastern Japan, and 60 Hz in the western part of the country. Service limiters of 30 to 60 A is typical for some electricity distributors."
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,419
    6,295
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    They being in a resource poor country with high energy rates, many in Japan likely make use of high efficiency appliances, like microwaves and induction ranges.

    The old standard in the US is 60 amp service, and is now 200 amp for new homes. The 60 amp can be up graded to 200 amp for many here, and would likely be a must for a level 2 charger, since they tend to be in the 30 to 50 amp range. For some in Japan, that means they could charge faster on level 2, but can't have anything elese electric running.

    We never stated here, nor did @Danny report in the other thread, that everybody in Japan had such limited electric service. But it is a large enough percentage that it is a major consideration for car manufacturers when it comes to plug ins, and is another reason Japan sees FCEVs as a better solution past a range 50 miles.
     
    taigebu likes this.
  15. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,832
    3,523
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    The Prime L2 charge capacity is specified as 3.3kW at 240V, meaning it only draws 14A.
     
  16. giora

    giora Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    1,966
    717
    0
    Location:
    Herzliya, Israel. Car: Euro version GLI
    Vehicle:
    2013 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    N/A
    The answer to this statement is in the post following yours. Yes they can.
     
  17. drash

    drash Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    1,483
    588
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
  18. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2009
    4,832
    3,523
    0
    Location:
    Westminster, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    What are you supposed to do with 1000V DC if you have a 300V to 400V battery?
     
  19. drash

    drash Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2005
    1,483
    588
    0
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Pretty sure that's a tested max. They will auto negotiate down.


    Unsupervised!
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    14,419
    6,295
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    That is 14 amps at 240V. That is a US electric standard voltage. Earlier it was stated a Japanese home might have 200V circuits stoves. If that's the highest voltage allowed, then to match the charge rate of the level 2 in the US, it will draw more than 16 amps. That is over half of a 30 amp service. To approach that level of draw on 200 amp service home requires a Tesla with dual chargers.

    Just because it could technically be done does not mean home owners and land lords will pay for the necessary equipment. Which is the second hurdle for level 2 charging in a Japanese home. The first is whether or not regulations and electric codes will allow it.

    Which takes us back to Toyota originally conceiving the solar roof as a supplement for more limited plug charging. Can the solar also help where the owner doesn't have such limits? Yes, but will people be willing to pay for that solar system where charging at home isn't limited? Toyota doesn't think so for North America, and they are probably right.
     
Loading...