Featured Future Toyota Prime PHEVs: How much range and performance?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Marine Ray, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

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    Recent 5 min read. This Green Car Reports article summarizes recent discussions with Cooper Ericksen, Toyota Motor North America VP for product planning and strategy. From article - “Our research indicates the average customer commutes in that 20-to-30-miles-per-day range,” Ericksen explained. “The key to a plug-in is to have the right range to do your daily tasks on EV only, plugging in, in your garage—and then you have the hybrid portion for long trips, so it's one car that in today's world can really do the job of multiple cars.”
    Future Toyota Prime plug-in hybrids: How much range and performance?
     
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  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    At one time, we had two plug-in hybrids:
    • 2017 Prius Prime, 25 mi EV, 640 mi total - 3 stop
    • 2014 BMW i3-REx, 72 mi EV, 150 mi total - 10 stop
    The Prime became driveway, sheet metal art. In addition to the short EV range, the control laws, especially below 55 F, would trigger the ICE to start. It was great for cross country trips, 56 MPG, but that was not our daily work commute and weekend errands.

    In contrast, the BMW i3-REx would not turn on the engine unless the SOC reached 6%. We tuned it to allow turning on the ICE at 75% SOC which made it a reasonable cross country car, 39 MPG at 70 mph. We would drive for 1 hr and 15 minutes to the next truckstop. Then fill up the 2 gal tank, biology break, and on the road again.

    So it was easy to trade-in the Prius Prime, $18,300, for our Tesla Model 3, $41,000 - 18,300 ~= $23,000 purchase price. Best of all, the Tesla is exceptionally efficient, 25 kWh/100 mi, $0.11/kWh ~= $2.75/100 miles.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sounds right. more range in a phev at a higher cost would already make a poor selling prime even worse
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I don't think it would sell worse. Thinking inside tesla's and vw's box a LFP 15 kwh battery and cooling system would likely cost toyota less if they used their new partner catl to make the cells. Of course mg2 and electronics would need to be upgraded for better performance which may take away some of the savings. It would likely have around 45 mile epa range in electric mode.

    Then again something that is a phev from the ground up and is more like a camry would likely sell better ;-)
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    or a rav4. oh wait, they already have one. not that they care to make many, just limit supply so dealers can continue to price gouge :rolleyes:
     
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  6. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    For my driving needs, the EV range or performance of PHEV is not that important as long as it has a range of at least 25 miles. Year, if it is less than 25 miles, like Pip, then the utility of owning a PHEV becomes less.

    And while having more EV range is nice and useful, the bottom line is for how much more? PRICE, PRICE, PRICE. That's what would be the most important factor. Toyota's strategy on BEV applies to PHEV as well. Read this article on that topic.
    Toyota EV Strategy Explained: Affordability Vs. Range

    Rav4Prime is attractive to me because of the cargo size, but I probably would not pay more than what I paid for the current PP for a longer EV range or more performance. Even for a much longer EV range of BEVs, the price is the primary factor determining the purchase decision. I can buy two PPs for the price of one Tesla M3. That is a lot of money.
     
    #6 Salamander_King, Dec 3, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
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  7. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    A lot of people are pouring money into Tesla for a bunch of reasons and concerns, than many others just don't feel the need to participate in. Automotive electirification, solar, advanced technology, zero emissions from a tail pipe, coolness, convenience,etc. . Thank god Tesla has found a winning formula, at least so far. with some help from toyota in the beginning, or we might be waiting dacade(s) longer before the environmental cleanup of automobile exhaust emissions started.
    It sure is a lot of money, but money isn't always the whole (story, which is one of the reasons Tesla has had to go the route they have to date) as the Electric Car transition leader. Toyota 's reluctance to produce an EV until next year might also have something to due with competition to Tesla 's goals.

    I can't currently afford one, so it doesn't matter for me how much they still cost. And Prime is the next best option for me, anyway. But if I could pay for it, I would have a Tesla and keep my fingers crossed for the future of mankind, which I currently don't cross my fingers for, for a lot of reasons.
     
    #7 vvillovv, Dec 3, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It is a personal choice:
    • Corporate 401k performed like a rotting pile of debris
    • Moved half of my 401k to TSLA stock spanning the infamous Elon quote 'going private'
    • Move rest from gold and 401k to TSLA and Ark
    I've taken TSLA profits to pay interest charging bills yet still have the same 401k balance per the Vanguard brokerage account. Is stock performance a valid reason?

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Mercedes was also an early investor, and stayed in longer than Toyota.

    For Toyota, they needed a compliance BEV, and for someone to take over the Freemont factory. Without those needs, I don't think they would have been helping Tesla.
     
    #9 Trollbait, Dec 3, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2021
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  10. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I wonder how the $60k Model Y minimum price will affect buying from people who think like you do.

    I'm fortunate that I could buy almost any EV made yet I won't pay $60k for something that would be expensive to insure and ridiculous to post-crash repair. Even my Porsches I bought used and never for over what would be $40k today.
     
  11. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    To be compliant with BBB The Prime will need a 10kwhr minimum battery size

    This means one of two things but…

    could result in Volt like EV range which is a nice touch (Pending non-vaporware status)
     
  12. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    It sure is! For the winners. ;) The losers, not so much ;)

    You an I have differing views on many subjects, both new and old. It's hard for me sometimes not to take your quoted responses as corrections many times. I'm still learning how to not be offended so easily by some of those responses.
    I never got to know how much maintenance and repair cost were for my buds new silver 73 914 2.0, or his moms 68? 911 either. I guess those costs have increased exponentially since than, since I've been told Porsche has some pretty high maintenance and repair cost currently. Much like their present MSRP's . Gone are the days of $ 10K 9ll 's and $ 3K caddy 's.

    This group has such a wide range of interests, purchase choices, concerns and sensitivities. I wish I was better at understanding them all.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    You are on the verge of enlightenment. Yes, we are diverse but willing to share why. Our ears work as well as our posts … usually.

    It has been almost three years since a Prius steering wheel was in my hands. Yet I hang here because of the wonderful current and past Prius owners.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Well said both of you. I'm Prius lacking now too but a Rav4 hybrid and an Avalon Hybrid co-owner.

    I enjoy the insights, prejudices, opinions etc shared here and the general tone of respect for other's opinions. Many are here to learn and are willing to share.
     
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  15. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I stumbled on a cost to repair table for the last few years ('17-'20) of many makes and models from an outfit called wepredict. Intended for dealers, I was surprised it was downloadable. From its description, it was intended for dealers and manufacturers.

    No EVs were covered nor were there a differentiation of hybrid versus plug-in versus ICE versions. For example, all Rav4s were lumped together. Ditto Prius.

    It was amazing to me how the average monthly cost for even the first year where the car would be under warranty were in the ~$100-$1,250 per month range. Stay away from those European high end makes.

    I'm suspecting that these costs were dealer costs and not owner costs. There were no explanation of how the figures were derived. So if a dealer has to service a new vehicle because they sold it, these might be the costs not covered by warranty reimbursement. Not sure.

    None the less they give you a reliability insight.

    Yes, maintenance cost and frequency both factor into ownership satisfaction.
     

    Attached Files:

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  16. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    My Prius Prime is my only vehicle and the last time the engine ran was August 18th (110 days ago) when we drove home from a road trip to Hutchinson Kansas, a trip on which we averaged 72MPG. It was 18 degrees when we left this morning and, as usual, the engine did not run and the heat pump worked well.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm glad it works for you. Our BMW i3-REx worked better for us than our last Prius Prime.

    Replacing the Prius Prime with a Tesla Model 3 improved our mileage efficiency. It lowered the cost per mile to ~1/3d the Prius Prime cost per mile.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #17 bwilson4web, Dec 6, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
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  18. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    I don't see how.

    I did the math. Cost per mile for a Model 3 is about double that for a Prius Prime.
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Fair question, show your work. I'll start:
    upload_2021-12-6_18-57-42.png
    • 240 mi range :: $0.12/kWh 25 kWh/100 mi -> $3.00 per 100 mile battery charge
      • $0.030 / mile
    • 640 mi range :: $012/kWh 25 kWh/100 mi -> $3.00 per 100 mile battery + $2.84/gal 54 MPG, 615 mi -> $32.34 :: $35.34 per tank
      • $0.030 / mile EV $0.00117 for 25 / 640 mi
      • $0.053 / mile gas $0.051 for 615 / 640 mi
      • $0.05217 / mile gas and electric
    Using current electricity and gas prices in Huntsville AL, the Model 3 remains cheaper to operate than our former Prius Prime. Not as much as earlier analysis, still cheaper.

    So your work?

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Based on identical kWh/100 mi, even if the Prius Prime was 100% electric, it would only match our 2019 Tesla Model 3.
     
    #19 bwilson4web, Dec 6, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2021
  20. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    You are lucky that your electricity is cheap. If you did the calculation based on our electricity of $0.27/kWh (starting in Jan) and assuming the current gas price of $3.40/gal stays steady, then you will see BEV cost advantage is not universal. Especially considering that M3 costs twice the price of PP in our region.
     
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