Featured Future Toyota Prime PHEVs: How much range and performance?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Marine Ray, Dec 2, 2021.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I agree and would suggests home solar cells become much more affordable.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  2. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Not really. Analysis shows that with the current usage of our electricity, installation of solar panels to cover 100% usage would take ~12years to break even with a current tax break. Without the tax break, it will take ~17 years to break even. And our cars don't even last that long due to salt on the road.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Ordinarily I would agree but you have some awesome solar energy between Spring and Fall. Winter sucks but it you had any option for wind, problem solved ... or winter geothermal. Now we're getting into some fun stiff.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  4. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Model 3: RWD: 44,990
    Prius Prime Advanced: 23,400 out the door

    Model 3 tires: 1,060
    Prius Prime: 600

    Model 3 fuel: 150,000/4 × 0.14 = 5,250
    Prius Prime fuel: 150000×0.8/5 × 0.14 = 3,360 + 150000×0.2 / 56 × 3.50 = 1,875. Total 5,235

    So, twice the price for the car, twice the price for tires (which dominate maintenance on the Prius) and the same price for fuel. Add in the extra cost of poor quality, expensive and unavailable spare parts along with longer distances to repair facilities and likely higher insurance for the Tesla and cost of ownership is likely easily double.

    Funny how you ignored ICC and maintenance obviously because those would demonstrate the high TCO of a Tesla.
     
  5. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    +1

    Most often the comparison of BEVs to conventional cars comes up with BEVs costing less to own. But that is usually the average cost of all BEVs and the average cost of all conventional cars. Or a comparison of two specific cars of similar MSRP using the MSRP as the cost of purchase. While PP is not a conventional car, it is exceptionally cheap to own and operate, especially when the large rebates and other incentives are included in the cost analysis.

    Starting from my first hybrid car 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid purchase, I have been keeping very detailed logs of costs associated with owning and operating cars. Those costs include not only the initial purchasing cost, but also tax, registration, insurance, maintenance, repair, fuel, and resale value if sold or traded in. 2008 HCH which was purchased used had much less initial cost compared to the subsequently purchased new cars, 2015 Gen3 Two, 2017 PP Premium, 2020 PP LE, and most recently 2021 PP Ltd. Guess which one of the five cars cost the most? It was Gen3. It cost most because it was purchased new, had no incentive, no tax credit, while it had very little maintenance, the resale value was not as good as PP. The second expensive car was used HCH that was driven to 150K of which ~83K was during my ownership until it was totaled. The third expensive car was the 2017 PP Premium, but the cost was mostly operational cost. The trade-in value was basically the purchasing cost. For 2020 PP, I ended up with a net profit even after all the operational costs were counted. For the current 2021 PP, if I trade it right now at KBB value, I would gain a net profit of ~$6,000, meaning my operating cost is -$1.672/mile. Yep, minus in front means on average one mile I have driven this car, I made a profit of $1.672.

    Here are the 5 hybrid cars I owned and the true cost of ownership. There is no way, I could have pulled off anything close to the number I get for PP if I purchased Tesla M3 or any BEVs on the market even if it was a very cheap used Leaf.

    • 2008 HCH EX $0.344/mi $344/mo total 83000 miles 83 months
    • 2015 Prius Two $0.584/mi $682/mo total 35000 miles 30 months
    • 2017 PP Premium $0.344/mi $261/mo total 40000 miles 31 months
    • 2020 PP LE -$0.444/mile -$161/mo total 3600 miles 10 months
    • 2021 PP Ltd -$1.672/mile -$1,195/mo total 3600 miles 5 months
    Of course, your circumstances may be different. Higher initial purchase price without the regional rebate, cheaper electric price, etc. YMMV for sure.
     
    #25 Salamander_King, Dec 6, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  6. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Member

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    I would be running the ICE at least once per month, to keep it maintained properly.
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Per Kelly Blue Book, 2021 Prius Prime with 16,000 miles, $31,597-33,732. As a trade-in:
    • $11,258 = 44,090 - 33,732 :: net Model 3 cost out the door with no sales tax in Alabama
    This is similar to how I bought my 2019 Tesla Model 3 by trading in a 2017 Prius Prime. Since this is a paper exercise, I used today but feel free to get a 2 year old Prius Prime quote as trade-in value. <GRINS>
    It is one reason why my Model 3 has new rims and Bridgestone Ecopia tires:
    • ~$225/rim -> $900 one time cost
    • $161.39 / tire -> $646.00 with twice the wear factor
    This is what I did when the OEM tires wore out at less than 30,000 miles. I knew the Tesla tires were tuned for acceleration performance and would be heavier, both tires and rims, than Tesla OEM.
    Sorry to hear about your electric rate. I did not include the free charging I get at Huntsville shops and malls so we're good.

    No problem as I updated your numbers with a rough history of what happened to our 2017 Prius Prime in 2019. Only I would take today's Prius Prime and instantly trade it in on a Standard Range Plus Model 3. Of course your mileage may vary but swapping out the Tesla tires and rims was always on the table. I had done a similar tire swap with our earlier Prius but kept the original light weight rims. Regardless, about maintenance:
    • $0.00 - oil changes, twice per year
    • $0.00 - air filter changes, one per year
    • $0.00 - coolant, spark plugs, PVC valve, cam shaft chain drive, catalytic converter, muffler, and any fuel system costs
    The other costs, insurance, is trivial as I only carry liability. I have plenty of TSLA stock to cover accident repairs after my lawyer with the Tesla video gets done with the other party.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #27 bwilson4web, Dec 7, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  8. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Member

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    Tyres is one aspect not often talked about. EV's being heavier means greater tyre cost and also greater tyre particle emissions.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The Tesla OEM tires are standard from the most aggressive, heavier, Model 3 to the lighter, most efficient, Model 3. So I always knew when the OEM tires wore out they would be replaced with lighter weight rims and longer wear factor tyres. We had a similar problem with OEM Prius tires being sub-optimal. The Prius rims were OK.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #29 bwilson4web, Dec 7, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I agree and fortunately @Lee Jay and I have owned Prius Prime. Actually my Prius history includes 2003, 2010, and 2017 models between 2005 and 2019.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    does price paid enter the equation in some cases? should it (price paid) be part of the equation or should carbon emissions from purchase to end of life be more important when going for base efficiency?

    getting on the same page can be helpful, but at PC that is always a debatable tactic.

    Tactic Definition &amp; Meaning - Merriam-Webster
     
    #31 vvillovv, Dec 7, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2021
  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    The price paid matters a lot to me and I suspect for many. If the car is not purchased, any calculation of carbon footprints and efficiency is just hypothetical. For many including me for sure, sub $20K PP price is the main reason for purchasing. Yeah, I would love to have more range and performance, but not the cost of Rav4Prime or Tesla M3.
     
  13. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    I respect your views as I do m y best to respect others view as well. For some I can see that far reaching environment concerns are way more important than the premium attached to the MSRP's. I'm a go electric fan and hope we can cleanup our carbon emission issues sooner than later. My dad was a big rail fan and stayed up to date in it's electrification, since he was young, even while working for American Gas Asso. for most of his working life and after that for the EPA at it's very beginning as one of the smallest big gov agencies, while I was still in secondary school. What Is Secondary School Compared to High School? | UoPeople
    I also see the need to promote vehicle electrification, as it surely is a paradigm shift for most drivers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradigm_shift double or triple that shift in the US / N. America an d perhaps other places too!
     
  14. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Member

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    [QUOTE=" I'm a go electric fan and hope we can cleanup our carbon emission issues sooner than later. [/QUOTE]

    The problem is that it will take too long. Norway has been at it for over 10 years and their fleet is only 15% EV. In the meantime there are 1.5 billion ice vehicles burning fossil fuel and that will be around for decades. Yes we need to migrate to cleaner vehicles but the current approach will not work in time.
     
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  15. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    While I am with you in terms of environmental concerns, I still think as long as the cost of BEV stays high (primarily MSRP, but also related to the high cost of electricity compared to gas in our region), achieving 100% EV will be an available option for only a few privileged consumers. To that end, I still think adequate EV range to perform most of day-to-day driving and convenience of gas for an occasional long trip offered by PP at very reasonable entering point purchase price and minimal day-to-day operating cost is extremely valuable for reducing overall carbon footprint.

    From my own experiences, for example:
    average mpg on HCH was 43.1mpg over ~83K miles which consumed 1927 gallons of gasoline in 83months or 23gal/mo
    average mpg on Gen3 Prius was 49.1mpg over ~35K miles which consumed 711 gallons of gas in 30months or 23gal/mo
    average mpg on 2017PP was 81.2mpg over ~40K miles which consumed 486 gallons of gas in 31months or 16gal/mo
    average mpg on 2020PP was 70.2mpg over ~3.6Kmiles which consumed 52 gallons of gas in 10months or 5.2gal/mo
    average mpg on 2021PP is 105.9mpg over ~3.6K miles which consumed 33.8 gallons of gas in 5months or 6.7gal/mo

    But what the pandemic has taught me in the last ~2years is that the most curving off of carbon footprint comes from by not driving. Pre pandemic, I was driving an average of ~300 miles/week or annual milage of ~15Kmiles. Since the beginning of the pandemic last March, I have driven only ~7600 miles in 20 months. That is almost a 70% reduction in carbon footprint associated with driving a car. What's interesting is that as the pandemic precautions continue, what was initially felt to be a "restriction" is no longer felt so restrictive. In fact, I am starting to like this new normal and new lifestyle. If everyone in this country can do the same as I did, that would be an instant 70% reduction of carbon emission from tailpipes nationwide, far more reaching than any EV adaptation in the last 10+ years.
     
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  16. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    Yes @Richard2005 That is what most of us environmentally conscious individuals believe, at least to the best of my knowledge, anyway. Just try to rock the boats of big business emissions and see how UN favorable the reaction become on all levels. Everyone wants all the conveniences science provides and non of the responsibilities that go along with the convenience.
    That puts the a heavy load on the individual(s) whom stray from the main stream directions of present cultural norms, financially, socially and overall quality of life. The system has ways of bending the individual to it's will.
    the basics
     
  17. vvillovv

    vvillovv Senior Member

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    @Salamander_King yep! at very least CARS are one of our biggest problems. While also being one of our biggest conveniences and ecoNOMIC drivers.
     
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  18. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I must say, in most cases, except the PPs, CARS were our biggest financial drain. For most people, the car is the second largest purchase next to a home, but when you consider owning more than one car and including all associated costs, car ownership often costs more than homeownership. On average, we spent over $1000/mo on two cars including all the costs. That is actually more than our mortgage. If I did not have to buy cars and our transportation needs were met at more reasonable costs, I would have been retired by now. LOL
     
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  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If considering the price for the car, then its resale value should also be a factor. Even before today's car market, Teslas tended to hold their value.

    We don't pay the externalities on petroleum on other things. Estimates for the price per gallon of gasoline when the cost of environmental damage, public health degradation, and political actions to secure it are factored in put it at $10 to $15. Those estimates were made without considering global warming.
     
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  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    No need to replace Model 3 with OEM tires. Lots of good replacements out there with similar specs. Due for tire change, going to have our Model 3 tires replaced in an hour. $575.46 after tax and all fees.
     
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