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Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Sue Case, Jan 6, 2023.

  1. Sue Case

    Sue Case Junior Member

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    Toyota Prime Plug-in at higher trim levels (XSE - XSE Premium) get lower battery mileage range the the base model (SE) Prime Plug-in. So in this Crazy World of Toyota the more you spend/pay for upgrading Prime, the less "free" battery mileage range you receive.

    The Prime SE (base level) gets 39 miles or so of battery operation use before hybrid motor takes over. But the more expensive trims levels only get 32 miles. Never thought I'd see the day you pay more for a car, hybrid, EV trim upgrades and then find out the base level model (you don't want) that costs thousands of dollars less, get better battery mileage then upper trim levels.

    What am I missing here. UGH

    https://attachments.priuschat.com/attachment-files/2023/01/231422_E02E6936-5155-47EE-AF3D-4B83322D20CE.jpeg
     
    #1 Sue Case, Jan 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2023
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  2. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    The same pattern appears on the non-Prime MPGs. The best MPG of 57/56 is only for the cheapest one. Pay more money and MPG drops to 53/54, then 52/52. Or pay even more for AWD and see MPG drop to 49/50. Ranges will drop accordingly.

    On the other-brand EVs, more money gets you more range only if that money goes into a bigger battery, not other accessories or comforts or range-robbing bigger wheels. The Prime doesn't have a bigger battery choice.
     
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You aren't getting a bigger battery with the higher price. So if the higher trims include something that reduces efficiency(guessing bigger wheels) that will reduce range.
     
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  4. Sue Case

    Sue Case Junior Member

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    Not arguing that point. Just saying Toyota was pumping the 50% increase in battery milage over last year's Prime. Potential buyers saw 38 miles Flashing on their PC's Smart phones, Laptops, etc., and not 32 miles for upper level trim models.

    So now I have to wonder if the XSE only gets 32 miles of battery range and maybe the XSE - Premium only get 30 miles (or less) of battery range because it has more "goodies" on it. Sad
     
    #4 Sue Case, Jan 6, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2023
  5. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Yes. I think that is kind of what he said.
    No doubt the more expensive models weigh more.
    And have more electronic power drain.
    And maybe have tires that achieve a bit more comfort at the expense of drag.

    And finally, if those numbers are really only estimates, you can't hand your hat on any of them.
     
  6. Sue Case

    Sue Case Junior Member

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    Can't wait for someone to buy the XSE premium, go for a ride and come back posting "well I got 28 miles on the Prime Battery. Gee that 3 miles more than last years Prius".

    But then above poster had to correct himself. "I used 91 octane gas for that battery mileage test - like Toyota did in their mileage test. When I dropped to 87 octane my Prime Plug-in batter on XSE Premium trim only got 27 MPG". Ain't it grand to spend over $35,000 for new Prius Prime Plug-in and get 2 more miles on new battery than last years battery. OMG
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    this is nothing new. idk if toyota mentioned it on gen 1 prime, but the base probably gets les range/less mpg's.
    current hycam is exactly the same way. they don't do it intentionally, but that's what happens when you load up the base model with options and tires.
    it's not ideal, but what is? i would love to be able to select a base anything, and add options a la carte, even cable tv. but it is what it is
     
  8. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    The glass roof, power seat and 19" wheels are added weight but I highly doubt it'll rob 7 miles, more like 4 or 5 and these are not final specs. The XSE - Premium already has those features so it would get close to XSE. I'd wait until the final specs came out before making a final decision. Who knows maybe the solar roof will add back a little more, but we have no real world or even official data on that. A lot of us with the Limited (or Advanced) versions of the Prius Prime saw no real EV-only range or mileage loss compared to LE or Plus trim although it would be interesting.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The 50% range increase announcement came from the same presentation that only said 57mpg in terms of hybrid fuel economy with no footnote of it being for the smaller wheels. It was a marketing event only celebrating the best of the new, which is how all these events are. It isn't Toyota's fault if people took those numbers as the floor of improvements. Just like it wasn't Musk's fault when he said the Model 3 would have a Supercharger that people took to mean free access to Superchargers.

    The current PP doesn't have different size wheels between trims, and that is the biggest the impact for the higher trims now. Europe requires separate fuel economy testing for different wheels, but under EPA Toyota might legally be allowed to use LE/SE results for all the trims.
     
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  10. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    I believe you are correct for the tires, since Toyota takes off 5 mpg to go from the LE Prius HEV to XLE/Limited but with a caveat. They might be looking at the highest trim for their estimate and Toyota doesn't differentiate between the XLE/Limited trims. XLE could have the glass roof but it's optional and the XLE does not offer a power tailgate. As far as the tires, the 17" with wheel covers and the 19" have almost the same amount of volume if I recall what @Salamander_King had calculated, so I'm guessing the mileage hit may not be as bad, IMHO. And BTW the EV only mileage the OP was quoted in her attachment was 40 and 33 miles (64 km and 53 km) of EV range but again these are reliant on Toyota's estimates not EPA.
     
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I suppose that same disappointment applies to the bottom dollar Model S it has the best miles/kWh ..... & yet when you buy the most powerful one? Yeah you pay a ton more for it. Some people just got to get from 0 to 60mph in under 2 seconds.

    .
     
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  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The estimates were likely made under the assumption of the EPA test. The testing may actually be done, and just waiting on official certification.

    For a car model with multiple variations, EPA rules allows just one estimate for the window sticker. As long as it is the same drive train and curb weights are reasonably close. That same drive train and near same weight rule was once such a loop hole that Ford was able to use the Fusion hybrid's numbers for the C-max. There might be a caveat that the trim actually tested needs to be one expected to be of majority sales or production.

    Which is why most cars sold in the US have just one mpg estimate for the same engine and transmission for all trims despite differences in weights and wheels between the trims. The spare delete in higher trims is likely to counter the weight gain of added features, so they can use the lighter trims test results. That weight balancing is also why certain features maybe on some trims, but not others. The solar roof option in Europe cancelled other higher options.

    The manufacturer is free to test and label other trims. They likely did the testing looking for the best result. Which is why some cars do have a different rating for different trims. Of course, weight differences could have been high enough to require it, but then the manufacturer could simply chose not sell such an equipped trim to avoid the needed testing.

    The tires and wheels of the new Prius are near the same volume and size, so the aero effects are the same*, but they aren't the same weight. The 19 in wheels, and the tires on them, are going to be heavier. More weight on a car takes more energy to accelerate and decelerate, no matter where it is on the car. Wheels are unsprung weight, that is weight not supported by the suspension system. This weight is also moving up and down with the road surface. That saps energy, and more weight, more energy lost. On top of that, heavier wheels take more energy to spin up.

    tl;dr Adding weight to the wheels has a bigger impact than throwing same amount of weight into the trunk.

    *Better aero in a frontal area sense. The wheel spokes have an aero impact, and the 17 in look to be sleeker in that sense.
    Well, that is simpler math. The RWD and AWD motors have near the same total power rating. The battery output is the limiting factor on actual power of the car. The price increase goes to that larger battery for increased capacity and output. It also adds a lot of weight. So even if the motors are of the same efficiency, more energy is needed to move the car, thus lower mpge rating for the long range model.

    The performance model adds a more powerful motor, but people paying for that would likely pay more for a larger engine in an ICE, so expect a lower efficiency rating.
     
  13. Sue Case

    Sue Case Junior Member

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    So in reality land (and vehicle performance land) the Prime Plug-in should of been offered with 17 inch wheels (instead of the 19 wheels) on the XSE and XSE-Primium upper trims. For the following reasons

    17 in wheels cost less
    17 in wheels require less battery drain
    17 in wheels are lighter and give "quieter" drive
    17 in wheels might look better than 19 inch
    etc.

    Seems Toyota might of shot themselves in the foot forcing 19 in wheels on upper trim levels. Just my humble opinion
     
  14. drash

    drash Senior Member

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    Don't know if they are quieter, that depends heavily on the manufacturer of tire and type but the 17" wheels have a higher sidewall which arguably gives them a better ride because of flex. There's nothing that says you can't sell the 19" and get the 17" at a later date. Might even make a little profit.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The 19in wheel with that tire size seems popular in Japan.

    Most higher trim cars for sale have larger wheels. More importantly, BEVs tend to have larger wheels, and that is the segment the Prius PHEV is loosing customers too.

    The Prius was designed as low emissions as the priority. Efficiency was a by product of that. If efficiency of the PHEV had been a main goal, it would have the 1.8L. Again, BEVs are the competition, and even the slow ones have a performance advantage over past Prii.

    Japan and North America are the Prius's major markets, and sales have been dropping. The Japanese are more accepting of smaller cars, and have the Aqua as max efficiency option. The goal of the gen5 Prius is to expand Prius sales beyond the current, shrinking audience without taking Corolla sales.

    That sucks for those of us that loved the early model's utility and efficiency, but it looks like most of us have been finding that elsewhere. Personally, I've opted to not compromise with a single vehicle; Outback for utility, and very likely getting an Aptera reservation for the efficiency. If the Aptera falls through, pretty sure I can find a Bolt.
     
  16. Prashanta

    Prashanta Active Member

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    I bet xse and xse premium have the same EV range. The wheels are the real culprits here.
     
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  17. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

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    I looked at the JPEG attachment, but the way it should be used was not obvious. There were also asterisks next to some values (such as range) and the corresponding footnote was not included. I suspect that the asterisk may hold the key.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Sometimes an image needs to pass through a graphic app to make a 'proper' image file:
    upload_2023-1-8_4-48-44.png

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It shows feature differences between the trims for Canada. Putting the base/starting trim at the bottom and moving up is the source of confusion, and I don't think we can blame that on French.

    The asterisk likely points to an EPA-like your mileage may vary warning, or that these aren't official estimates. I doubt it would give an answer to why the difference.
     
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  20. Louis19

    Louis19 Active Member

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    Moi non plus:D:ROFLMAO:;)
     
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