Gen 5 Prius (possible in 2021) will we possibly see 60mpg?

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Main Forum' started by TNeil, May 12, 2019.

  1. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    VW - and others killed Diesel in cars. 2 of my best ever cars were Diesels (Ford Focus and Ford Fiesta).

    But Hybrid doesn't work well with Diesel - as many Euros have tried (incl PSA and VW from memory), and tossed the idea. Restarting a petrol continually is chicken-feed - but a diesel has number of issues apparently, mainly cost, but also in emissions, and NVH.

    I can't find anything recent (hiding in GOOGLE undoubtedly) - but GreenCarReports had one, but it's nearly 10 years old.

    Diesel Hybrids: Why They Don't Make As Much Sense As You Think (greencarreports.com)
     
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  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Mercedes is the only one I can’t think of that is still producing diesel PHEVs. The next gen C-Class due in 2022 will also offer a gas and diesel PHEV option (region dependent of course)

    Edit: fixed typo
     
    #82 Tideland Prius, Mar 16, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2021
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  3. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    We never got the diesel hybrid Merc here, only the petrol PHEV. The only other I know of was the Citroen/Peugeot back 8 or 10 years ago - but was dropped after only 2 or 4 years.
     
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  4. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Member

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    [QUOTE="The Gen 4's engine isn't part of the Dynamic Force family AFAIK. It's simply an updated version of the Gen 3's 1.8 litre engine[/QUOTE]

    OK yes you are correct ... Dynamic Force came a bit later. Yes I heard that rumor that the engine was not changing .. but I wonder if that is literally the case or whether it means it will be another 4 cylinder and not a BEV.
     
  5. meeder

    meeder Active Member

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    Dynamic Force engines are the direct injection engines. In hybrid vehicles they are the 1.5, 2.0 and as far as I know the newest 2.5 in the RAV4 hybrid.
     
  6. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    A naturally aspirated diesel makes perfect sense for a PHEV since peak HP is meaningless and the power plant cost is half that if a turbo diesel.

    If you want more power just make it dual fuel diesel + e85 late injection for a boost.
     
  7. meeder

    meeder Active Member

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    A atmospheric diesel also has very low NOx emissions since the combustion temperatures are relatively low.
    Noise levels are perhaps an issue as is engine weight.
     
  8. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Check out the Daihatsu Charade 1liter diesel
    That diesel weighed 25lbs more than the gas version and is the perfect size as an extender for a sedan.
    As an option it was a $250 premium over the gas car so minimal cost premium.

    There is absolutely zero reason to have a large heavy multiple hundreds of horsepower turbo diesel driving a range extended hybrid.

    The extender should be just big enough to drive you 70mph on the flat
    In other words, small, cheap, reliable, efficient

    The Daihatsu was considered so simple and inexpensive it is used to this day in large lawn mowers
     
    #88 Rmay635703, Mar 26, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
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  9. PaulDM

    PaulDM Active Member

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    Face it guys the best we will get is a facelift
    Model a 2000-2005
    Model b 2005-2007
    Model b facelift 2007-2010
    Model c 2010-2012
    Model c facelift 2012-2014
    Model c facelift 2 2014-2016
    Model d 2016-2019
    Model d face lift 2019+
     
    #89 PaulDM, Mar 26, 2021
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  10. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    what about 2010-2015?

    or are those years best forgotten?

    2016-2021 ?
     
  11. PaulDM

    PaulDM Active Member

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    appologies. 2010-2015 model c facelift.
    2016 model d
    Edited post
     
    #91 PaulDM, Mar 26, 2021
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  12. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

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    You are forgetting a few things. First is that the hybrid system works so well because the drawbacks of each half is made up for in the other. The limited range of a hybrid in EV mode is countered by the range inherent in a gas powered engine. The extremely clean running Atkinson cycle engine does not have enough power at low RPMs to move a small car off the starting line but the electric motor does. Between them you have a clean, efficient powertrain.

    So what weaknesses of the Diesel are you tying to counter in a hybrid design?

    The other major point that does not work is the idea of a range extender that's "just big enough to drive you 70mph on the flat". How does that work when you deplete the battery getting up to 70MPH on the freeway and you are cruising along at 70 MPH just as you reach the bottom of a 5 mile long 6% grade?

    What you have proposed is a serial hybrid. In general with a serial layout, the electric motor has to be strong enough to accelerate without the benefit of the diesel and the diesel has to provide enough power to keep the car moving even under the most adverse conditions.

    Dan
     
  13. davran

    davran Member

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    A lot of stopping and starting isn't good for diesels (I've had many, the last of which is an '84 Benz 240d). For that reason alone I don't think they're a good choice for a car that's going to shut down the engine at stop lights.
     
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  14. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Definitely - how many times does a PRIUS shut and restart the ICE? All the time. I've owned 2 Diesel Hatches and can't imagine them stopping and starting the engine all the time.
     
  15. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    mHow does it work in the I3? (The Daihatsu in question is nearly identical in power to an I3 Rex)

    By being a PHEV and having the ability to engage the motor at any SOC there would be no compromises.

    Further a diesel with the ability to late inject e85 in addition to a diesel fueled spark plug could have 4x the power of diesel alone (twice the power of a gasoline rig)
    Also eliminating the extreme unreliability of the turbo under start stop

    Naturally aspirated diesels are more resistant to start stop than gasoline and restart in a single compression cycle.

    only turbo diesels have issues with cold weather and start stop
     
    #95 Rmay635703, Mar 27, 2021
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  16. meeder

    meeder Active Member

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    You do need to use a multistage direct injection setup to get the noise level down and to get it to run somewhat smooth.
    You wouldn't want a 1980's clatterbox in a modern vehicle.
     
  17. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    I have no issue with diesel sound, my 1982 diesel suburban was as quiet as any other truck
     
  18. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

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    The i-3 rex does OK for what it's designed to do. The 650CC range extender motor is "the system is intended as an emergency backup to extend range to the next recharging location, and not for long-distance travel" according to BMW**. According to one of the users on this site, once the battery drops to 30% SOC the motor runs non stop in an attempt to keep the SOC from falling any lower. With 168 HP motors and a 33 HP generator... you do the math. :)

    If you look around, the i3-rex has been discontinued in Europe, and is still for sale in the USA only because (by a loophole in some laws/regulations) it provides carbon credits to have it on the market.

    By comparison, the Prius has blended the battery and ICE technology such that even while climbing a 7,000 foot mountain (US-50 to Lake Tahoe) it manages to charge the battery while driving at full speed.

    Dan

    ** BMW i3 Electric Car: ReX Range Extender Not For Daily Use?
     
  19. meeder

    meeder Active Member

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    Those large diesels were always quieter compared to the smaller ones.
    I drove a 1991 VW Golf 1.6 diesel and that thing was a clatterbox although I loved that thing to death and still miss it.
    It was followed by a Skoda Fabia (VW group) 1.9 PD-TDI which was quieter but still clattered nicely :)
    It was only when they switched to common-rail diesels with lower compression (and high boost) that the sound levels seriously went down. Multi-stage injection (up to 8 times during one combustion cycle) seriously lowers sound levels but increase complexity.
    3 cilinder diesels never have been particularly quiet.
     
  20. tucatz

    tucatz Active Member

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    The horrific smell of a diesel, any diesel, makes me long for the time when they are all gone. Forever. Try riding a bicycle behind a diesel.
     
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