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Gen 5 Prius Prime will charge almost twice slower than Gen 4 Prius Prime

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Main Forum' started by Gokhan, Mar 5, 2023.

  1. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Looking at the Japanese website and owner's manual as well as the US owner's manual, the Gen 5 charger is limited to 16 A and 3.5 kW. The manual explicitly states that fast charging is not available. These are the charge times:

    Gen 4 Level 1 @ 120 V, 12 A: 5 hours
    Gen 4 Level 2 @ 240 V, 13.7 A: 2 hours and 10 minutes
    Charger: 3.3 kW

    Gen 5 Level 1 @ 120 V, 12 A: about 8 hours
    Gen 5 Level 2 @ 240 V, 14.6 A : about 4 hours and 10 minutes
    Charger: 3.5 kW

    One upgrade over Gen 4 is that the AC charger will also charge the 12-V battery and allow the operation of the accessories and A/C. So, this should result in less 12-V battery failures.

    [​IMG]

    Gen 5 PRIUS PRIME owner's manual for Japan (in English) | TOYOTA

    Gen 5 PRIUS/PRIUS PRIME driving performance (in English) | ヨタ プリウス | 機能・性能 | 走行性能 | トヨタ自動車WEBサイト
     
    #1 Gokhan, Mar 5, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  2. hyhi

    hyhi Member

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    Darn, 4 hours. Guess would have to hope some regen diving would recharge the prime battery a bit so it would not be near empty when pakred at level 2 to charage for a bit. Never drove a prime so don't know if one can tell it not to use the prime battery...guessing not. Will be interesting to see real world miles one can drive just on prime battery; maybe one can flip a switch so it runs on prime battery when wanted.
     
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  3. Nntw

    Nntw Active Member

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    The charging times sound suspiciously similar to those of a RAV4Prime.

    Actually, maybe a bit better.

    If you want more range, it shouldn’t be THAT much of a surprise that you have to charge longer. However, charge time doesn’t seem to be one of Toyota’s strengths; there are complaints that the bz4x also charges slowly.

    With the RAV4Prime, you can tell it to operate as a conventional hybrid, to charge the battery while driving, or in electric mode.
     
    #3 Nntw, Mar 5, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    I’m happy with 4 hours. It’s a phev, plenty of time for recharging imo.
    Plus, you’ll get 80% very quickly
     
  5. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Senior Member

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    Probably not going to be starting at 20% all that often either. 4 hours is very comfortable. Heck, I'm planning on 120V because running a new wire to my garage would be a cast iron b****, and I'm still good with the time.
     
  6. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Yes, there is an HEV/BEV switch on the Prius Prime PHEV. 44 miles BEV range on SE, 36 miles BEV range on XSE/XSE Premium.
     
  7. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    As I mentioned in another thread, Gen 5 Prius Prime PHEV is likely using 51.0-Ah Panasonic prismatic cells with a 2,000-cycle life at 1C (1-hour charging). They should last perhaps 10,000 cycles at C/4 (4-hour charging), meaning 400,000 miles of life in pure BEV mode, driving 40 miles in each cycle.

    Gen 5 Prius Prime owner's manual | PriusChat
     
  8. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

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    Well, the 2023 PP does have a bigger battery than the 1st Gen PPs (2017-22) The 3.5 kW charger isn't much faster then the 2017-22 PPs. Doesn't the RAV4 Prime have a 6.6 kW charger (32A)? Wonder why they couldn't use 6.6 in the 2023 PP...
     
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  9. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    12 miles takes me an hour and a half, so anything will be better
     
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  10. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Bigger batteries take longer to charge.

    And generally speaking, long warranties are cheaper to offer (and fulfill) when the charge rate is lower.

    I can see they had to balance many different factors to arrive at the current product.
     
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  11. GuyLR

    GuyLR Junior Member

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    The post title is misleading. The gen 5 takes almost twice as long but is charging the larger battery slightly faster at 3.5kw vs 3.3kw.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    As that German reviewer reported.
    Unless you are now going to stores further away, the charge time to replenish used miles isn't going to change much for those with a gen4 Prime.

    Most likely price point. The RavP in the US started with a slower charger on the low trims, maybe the new PP's is that one.
     
  13. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    @GuyLR, @bisco, @Mendel Leisk, @Trollbait

    You made it sound like you know nothing about batteries.

    No, the title is very precise.

    The charge rate is the C rate, which is the inverse of how long it takes a single cell in the battery pack to charge in hours. 1C rate takes the cell 1 hour to charge. 2C rate takes 1/2 hours to charge. C/2 rate takes 2 hours to charge. C/4 rate takes 4 hours to charge. Gen 4 Prius Prime PHEV charged at C/2. Gen 4 Prius Prime charges at C/4. Therefore, the charge rate is twice slower in Gen 5 than in Gen 4.

    C rate is a cell property, not a battery-pack property. Cell cycle life depends on the C rate, decreasing with the increasing C rate. Moreover, the maximum C rate achievable by a cell varies with the cell chemistry, architecture, and construction.

    Battery capacity simply depends on the number of cells (there are 72 cells in Gen 5 PHEV) and the capacity per cell (51.0 Ah for Gen 5 PHEV). It has nothing to do with the C rate (charge rate).

    The charger power in W equals to the cell capacity in Ah multiplied by the cell voltage (typically 3.7 V for lithium-ion cells), then by the number of cells, and then by the C rate in 1/h.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_charger#C-rate
     
    #13 Gokhan, Mar 5, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
  14. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Probably the main reason to have a lower charge rate (C rate) is the desire to have a longer cell cycle life. The Panasonic prismatic cells used in the PHEV are apparently rated 2,000 cycles at 1C (1-hour charging). They will probably be rated 10,000 cycles at C/4 (4-hour charging), and Toyota will never have to worry about replacing batteries under warranty. The owners will also not experience significant BEV-range losses, making it a win–win. Even in pure BEV driving, the battery will be good for 20 years/400,000 miles.

    Moreover, it reduces the cost and weight.
     
    #14 Gokhan, Mar 5, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Really, calling out people that liked a post.

    Neither the title nor OP mention C-rate. The title didn't specify if the slower meant time or rate. The charge time is longer cause the baiiger is higher capacity, but the charge rate of the charger is faster than the old model.
     
  16. PianoBench

    PianoBench Member

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    Amazing! They are still able to keep it under 8 hours. Enough for a full night rest!

    In my opinion, Prime should be driven as a hybrid. EV for low speed, efficient engine for high speed. The best of both worlds.

    Leave pure EV for the city folk!
     
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  17. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Yes. Be more careful next time. ;)
     
  18. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    Hmm...do we care about charging speed when it comes to a PHEV? If it is 'acceptable'...then it should be fine. And 4 hours really does seem acceptable, especially given the longer range. PHEVs don't have "range anxiety" anyway...so who cares? (y)
     
  19. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    One possible confusion in foreign news: not everywhere uses the same electrical standards.

    In Japan AC mains are 100 volts, a dryer would be 200 volts. Oddly eastern Japan is 50 Hz, while western Japan is 60 HZ.

    The same EVSE in North America would always be 60 HZ and 20% faster at 120/240 volts.

    Europe uses 50Hz 230 volts with a variety of different plugs.

    While Hz is not going to effect charging time, both voltage and plugs will.

    North American 120 volts almost always is limited to 15 amps peak, 12 Amps sustained. The UK is frequently limited to 13 Amps. (I suspect that is peak, not sustained)

    Level 2 charging in Japan may also be limited, as they use more 15 amp/200 volt outlets, while 20 amp/240 volts is just about the minimum in North America (16 amps sustained) As your picture shows 16 Amps, I suspect Toyota is using a 20 amp plug. https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/JP/JP_200V-20Asocket.jpg
     
    #19 JimboPalmer, Mar 5, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023
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  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The US owner's manual says 3.5 kW (14.6 A @ 240 V), and the Japan owner's manual says 3 kW (15 A @ 200 V). This was taken into account in my original post; so, the charge times I provided should be correct.

    I think the charge cable with CCID Toyota provides is universal with 90–240 V and 50/60 Hz, only the plug being different. One interesting aspect this time seems to be that the owners may not need to install a third-party Level 2 EVSE to take full advantage of the 3.5-kW charger. It could be that this time you could draw 14.6 A with the provided charge cable. It draws 15 A @ 200 V in Japan. You could only draw 12 A @ 120 V or 240 V in Gen 4 in the US. It will have to be seen whether the Gen 5 OEM EVSE is limited to 12 A or perhaps it can go up to 14.6 A @ 240 V, as it can go up to 15 A @ 200 V in Japan.
     
    #20 Gokhan, Mar 5, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2023