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Featured Gen 6 Prius engine will be a “game changer,” achieve a 53% thermal efficiency

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Gokhan, Jun 7, 2024.

  1. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    The 53% (If Toyota isn't VW'ing the math!!) part is great but a roofline that's even lower than a G5???
    Hard pass.
    Wouldn't mind seeing a turbo version in a small truck that doesn't cost more than a full sized GM or gets more MPG!

    Besides....by the time the G5's are out in the wild (2031?) there will probably be more.....um.....disincentives to rolling an ICE powered car and Toyotas are already eye wateringly expensive in 2024.
     
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  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    53% of course can be done with heat recovery (turbo charging but likely e-turbos). Mercedes first did this over a decade ago. The question is really cost. Nissan did lean burn and heat recovery claim in its e-power to get to 50%, but this engine doesn't translate into great mpg as it is only here in a small rpm and load range so must charge a battery then have that drive a motor (series hybrid).

    More power to them if toyota can pull this off at a good price. That super efficient nissan engine didn't make it to america, and likely needed stronger pollution control. A e-turbo could probably do it clean.

    I am confused by the short stroke nonsense. People have been making short stroke engines for decades. The problem is to get the power you need higher rpm, meaning more friction and lower efficiency. Toyota may have gotten the friction low enough but on dynamic force they went long stroke for less friction and more efficiency
     
  3. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    You must have gotten a super early bird special discounts on your solar installation. I did my calculation (see below). Even if the system works double the time for 50 years trouble free (no repair or replacement cost and no further degradation), my projected cost per kWh will only be $0.0512/kWh a far cry from your number.

    EDIT to add: And my number is purely for the cost/kWh generated by solar panels. It does not include the minimal fee I must pay to the utility even if the system achieve the Net Zero production.

     
    #23 Salamander_King, Jun 7, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2024
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    hopefully these 'improvements' don't turn out like the gen 3 motor
     
  5. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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    Yes, the comments are nonsensical for most in that part of the country.

    While the article is a year old certainly pertinent for anyone living in Minnesota (and if the person wants to switch their location back to California the story there is an even bigger nightmare regarding electric rates)

    Proposed energy mandates will increase costs, blackout risk (americanexperiment.org)
    "The 2022 midterm elections gave Democratic lawmakers in Minnesota total control of state government, offering liberal lawmakers an opportunity to enact new energy mandates requiring 100% of Minnesota’s electricity to come from carbon-free sources by 2040.

    While these mandates may be well-intentioned, policymakers must understand that they will undermine grid reliability, potentially causing rolling blackouts, and increase electricity costs for Minnesota families and businesses
    ."

    March 1, 2024
    “Green deindustrialization” hits Minnesota: Hibbing Foundry closes due to soaring electricity costs (americanexperiment.org)
    Unfortunately, some areas of the United States that have pursued similar energy policies — sans the Russian gas — are beginning to experience their own “green deindustrialization,” including Minnesota.

    On Friday, March 1st, Indiana-based Metal Technologies announced it would be closing Northern Foundry, an electric induction foundry in Hibbing, Minnesota, due to the state’s skyrocketing electricity costs. The Minneapolis-Star Tribune reports:

    Obama promising his party's plan to cause electric rates to skyrocket in the US for the foreseeable future:



    This discussion does not even begin to then touch on the practicality, expense and environmental concerns that renewable energy is fraught with.
    What happens to solar panels once they've reached end-of-life? - ABC News
    Lime Down Solar Park: Petition against solar farms at almost 8,000 names (bbc.com)
    Solar project to destroy thousands of Joshua trees in the Mojave Desert (aol.com)

    New Report Highlights Green Failure in Europe and Warns America | RealClearEnergy
    Peat slide near wind farm ‘caused permanent environmental damage’ | Wind Energy News (wind-watch.org)
    Wind energy has a massive waste problem. New technologies may be a step closer to solving it | CNN

    Hopefully technology will come to the rescue here and make these more sustainable. Their is no free ride or perfect environmental answer currently for energy supply.

    Both solar and wind show energy potential but currently come with ecological issues. No one lives on their own personal island immune from these type energy, environmental, and economic discussions no matter what type of system they have or how immune from the consequences they may feel, everyone is in this together.
     
    #25 John321, Jun 7, 2024
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2024
  6. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Don't forget cargo space, if you're in the business of moving goalposts :whistle:
     
  7. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Every time I see a post citing per mile costs, I look at mine and ask why would I consider buying a car like that when I have averaged 7 cents a mile fuel costs and $200 a month depreciation over 35k and 5 years next month with the ability to carry a dishwasher to recycling, 6 55 gallon bags of clippings to the landfill, 4 adult men and 4 golf bags.

    My total expense for repairs has been for a set of wipers and a set of tires, not because I needed them to be legal but out of an abundance of caution going into hurricane season. (Mich CC2s not for MPG but for performance in the rain. We take her car which gets better MPG on many trips.)

    Oh, I did add a injector cleaner from Walmart.

    I also have conventional controls which at my age are lots safer in an emergency than learning a touch screen.
     
  8. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Since this engine is under development, the exact number is not known, but I pulled it from the following figure, showing exactly a 30% improvement over the current 41% efficiency.

    [​IMG]

    Note that this engine is actually a collaborative development between Toyota, Mazda, and Subaru, and they have already reported an engine with a 50% thermal efficiency. So, we will see how close it will come to 53% efficiency in reality.

    Subaru, Toyota, and Mazda Commit to New Engine Development for the Electrification Era, Toward Carbon Neutrality | Corporate | Global Newsroom | Toyota Motor Corporation Official Global Website

    Subaru, Toyota, and Mazda Commit to New Engine Development for the Electrification Era, Toward Carbon Neutrality | NewsRelease | Subaru Corporation

    MAZDA NEWSROOM|Subaru, Toyota, and Mazda Commit to New Engine Development for the Electrification Era, Toward Carbon Neutrality|NEWS RELEASES

    Subaru Corporation CEO Presentation PDF/2.5MB
    Subaru Corporation CTO Presentation PDF/3.0MB

    Toyota Motor Corporation CEO Presentation PDF/1.9MB
    Toyota Motor Corporation CTO Presentation PDF/2.2MB

    Mazda Motor Corporation CEO Presentation PDF/3.1MB
    Mazda Motor Corporation CTO Presentation PDF/2.5MB
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The 53% thermal efficiency seems to be based upon a statement from an earlier article about a 30% efficiency improvement, which seems to be an error in translation or transmission. An SAE article reports it is an improvement in power, "The new 1.5-L turbo engine would be similarly smaller (a 20% volume reduction and a 15% height reduction) compared to the current 2.5-naturally aspirated engine and will trade slightly worst fuel-efficiency for a 30% improvement in horsepower."

    From the Toyota Times, this power improvement is in comparison to hypothetical engines. New, stricter emission regulations are going into effect in about 3 years. If Toyota stuck with existing engines, they would have to depower them, in addition to adding more emission controls. So that new 1.5L turbo is being compared to the current 2.5L modified to meet Euro7.

    Toyota, Mazda, Subaru agree carbon is ‘enemy' with internal combustion engine announcement
    The Engine Reborn--Three Companies Develop ICEs for Decarbonization
    New Toyota 1.5 L and 2.0 L Engines Will Be Game Changing - Deliver Record Mileage (this has the 1.5 turbo to 2.5L power/efficiency slide the Toyota Times left out)

    These are further details to the discussion here, Toyota plans for ICE engines | PriusChat
    The Toyota Times article includes info on what Subaru and Mazda are doing.
    Water pumps are usually driven by the timing belt/chain. It could be a hybrid starter generator(HSG) for a mild hybrid.

    These will all have some degree of hybridization. They will rely on the electric side for torque needs. It also leaves us wondering how much of these power and efficiency comparisons to the current engines include the hybrid side.
     
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    goalposts are too big for a car, better look into a truck :)

    2 years ago they said in 5 years they could be out of the lab and in a car with an engine over 50% efficiency (those engines had turbos for heat recovery). Mercedes put a 50% efferent engine in a f1 for many years, but the trick is to get the costs down. Hope toyota has this in a small battered phev soon.
     
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Using a graph without axis values is risky.
    Engines in the 50% thermal efficiency range are using lean burn, compression ignition, and/or designed for a very narrow operating band. Didn't mention turbo because this is a natural aspirated engine.

    I think the solid white dot is the hypothetical current engine for new emission regs.
     
  12. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    It will have to be seen, but certainly, this all-new “game-changing” engine is like nothing before. It is interesting that 30% is explicitly mentioned in the horsepower in another graph, and the thermal-efficiency axis here, which does not have the break like the horsepower axis, is showing exactly 30% as well.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    How is it showing 30%?
    We know the current engine is 40% thermal efficiency, but the graph line could be starting at 35% and ending at 45% for all we know.
     
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  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Thanks. that chart posted was probably by some marketing guy that didn't understand what was being said. 30% was also the figure that skyactiv x was supposed to improve mpg, but improvements in real cars were much less.

    Hybridization does not increase engine efficiency other than losing the drag of powering components through mechanical energy. Your confirmation of turbo charging does however explain how you go short stroke without making the engine less efficient. Say you use a turbo with 1.5 atm of boost, then that boosted engine can travel at a lower rpm (2000 rpm for the 1.5 turbo, 3000 rpm for the 2.5 NA) then friction even with a shorter stroke will be much lower. Now that turbo will be big so it will have a lot of lag, but the hybrid can make up for it. Better yet if its an e-turbo (the 1.5 atm came from a bosche test versus a 1atm standard trubo) there isn't much lag, you don't need a waste gate, and excess thermal energy will charge the battery. One of the costs of an e-turbo is the high battery power required, but in a hybrid the battery is already there, and in a phev there is a big buffer. If toyota can get the cost of the e-turbo system down to around $1500 they will have a big winner.
     
  15. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I'd think that the e-turbo's demands would be rather nicely paired with a biggiecapacitor to buffer the battery. Do you know anyone to have tried?
     
  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Wait, why do people keep talking about energy efficiency, isn't this a political/solar/High utility cost thread?

    .
     
  17. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    As I said, the vertical axis explicitly shows a break, but the horizontal axis is not showing a break; therefore, it is starting from zero.
     
  18. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    That's useless hair splitting until you think about how it gets to the road. If the transmission won't let the engine spend much time in that perfect peak then it's just a silly stat to bat around.
     
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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The graph axis is labeled thermal efficiency (fuel economy). The latter isn't something usually attributed to an engine alone. So they could be discussing values in a hypothetical car, including hybridization and aero improvements.

    There is a NA 1.5L, the one with a 'black' box connected to the rear of the engine. It makes about the same power as the current 1.5L, but has a fourth cylinder. It is the one of high efficiency speculation. My guess is it is a genset for a series hybrid.

    The start point of graph lines can be set at values other than zero.

    These are also presentation graphs, and can have a very loose relation to any numbers. Toyota was willing to put the 30% power difference in print. If the efficiency difference was noteworthy, they'd likely have done the same.
    Check the dates. It has been six years, and Mazda didn't talk about SkyActiv-X improvements at the presentation.

    Nissan might already be selling a 50% thermal efficient engine. In a series hybrid where it can run at a single rpm. They haven't sold one here because highway efficiency gains aren't note worthy.