Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by ryousideways, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. SuirpEvets

    SuirpEvets New Member

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    So one other feature option of the iCharger that may be a good alternative to the Forming Charge is the NiMH/NiCd/Pb Trickle feature. This will apply a trickle charge of 10-500mA after charging. Why I might actually prefer this is because I don't love the idea of charging at 1C (6.5A) as it seems most people limit to 5A and many go much lower (1-3A). So then I might do a 3-5A charge rate and use the Trickle after to run additional charge at the generally recommended 350mA to "top balance".
    Just wanted to add that.

    Happy charging,
    Steve
     
  2. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    You already posted a graph of a pack being discharged. Now produce a graph with the pack being charged.

    That's a very impressive introduction. Respect!

    You are on the right track.
     
  3. SuirpEvets

    SuirpEvets New Member

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    Oh duh, yeah I have a few other graphs with both, as this was just a snap while driving, but I wasn't really paying attention to whether it was charging or discharging. I'm planning to do the force charge - discharge in reverse procedure, so maybe I can get info during that. Otherwise I'll do some more road testing and see.

    I was a professional mechanic for a few years, and I've continued doing plenty of other personal auto projects since, so I've done a handful of engine or transmission replacements. I'm a mechanical engineer now. Once I learned how the Synergy Drive system worked I had to have one. They really nailed it with the Prius I think. The IMA is just a motor sandwiched between the engine and trans, not so clever.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll stay the course.

    Steve
     
  4. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    IMA system may not seem clever bit does have some advantages.

    For example, if battery dies, you can choose not to replace it. Instead just driving on gas alone forever.

    Can't do that with Prius.
     
  5. SuirpEvets

    SuirpEvets New Member

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    Agreed, it's clever in that way, and still provides hybrid benefits as long as it's working. However, the Prius transaxle has only a few moving parts and no valve body, which should make it much more reliable and long lasting plus it being a CVT without the issues of a traditional CVT. And as many accounts have shown, the IMA batteries didn't do so well at least at first (I understand they corrected that), whereas the Toyota batteries hold up well past 100k or even 300k or more! My Prius had the original battery at 285k, and probably only failed because it sat for so long.

    Anyway, I could go on, but it's off topic for this thread, and it's already long enough.
    Fun topic tho :)

    Steve
     
  6. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    Some time ago, user Kiwi posted a YouTube clip showing how he was using a handheld barcode scanner to scan module QR codes into a spreadsheet and then calculating the manufacture date of each module.



    Someone asked how he did that but Kiwi didn’t reply.

    I’m going to be dealing with multiple hybrids so for me it would be useful to keep track of which modules and battery packs are in which car.

    It turns out that the vast majority of handheld barcode scanners are only one-dimensional (ie 1D). That means that they can read conventional barcodes only (ie the vertical lined ones).

    Not many scanners are two-dimensional (ie 2D) so if you’re considering buying a scanner than make sure that it’s a 2D model.

    I recently bought a Honeywell 1400G Voyager on eBay and it arrived today. Newegg current lists this thing for $A405.90 so getting it delivered for $A65.42 was a nice win.

    Oh yeah. This is cool.

    It didn’t work initially when I plugged it into my Apple MacBook Pro, but I managed to get it working somehow.

    I opened Excel, picked up a spare module and aimed the Honeywell at the QR code.

    The module serial number scanned instantly into Excel.

    I’ve only tinkered with it for a few minutes, so I don’t yet know how accurate it is with scanning in the correct QR code (ie the QR codes are all physically close together, so I figure I’ll cover the QR code to each side with my fingers).

    For scanning in QR codes of modules in a pack the trick is to hold the scanner sideways - it emits a wide red laser so you want to make that run along the modules instead of across multiple QR codes.

    If you’re assembling a pack module by module then it would be easy to have the scanner in its stand and wave each module under the scanner as you place it in the pack. I’ve just tried that and it works perfectly.

    Of course, the next step is to work out a formula in Excel to convert that serial number into the manufacture date. Anyone? Anyone?

    [​IMG]

    My first attempt at reading in QR codes:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Holding the scanner this way means that the red light crosses more than one QR code, and can read the wrong code.

    [​IMG]

    Holding the scanner so that the red light runs along the module was much more accurate and reliable.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. SuirpEvets

    SuirpEvets New Member

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    That should be pretty simple, basically just a reference table, and VLookup function, maybe also use Text to Columns.
    Lemme know if you want some help, but there's lots of Excel info on YouTube and you can probably get this working just from that.
    Neat what you're doing, btw. I bet you can get an app that'll read the bar codes too, but then getting the info where you want it might be a chore.
     
  8. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    I don't have any experience with Excel or such equations.

    It can't be too hard to do - the first two digits are the day, the third digit is the month and the fourth digit is the year (except that it's not always a digit, so a reference table/list will be required).

    If you or anyone else has the skills to come up with something then please go for it.

    Here is a list of serial numbers from a pack that was recently rebuilt but stopped working after a few weeks.

    Two of the original February 2007 modules were replaced with October 2016 modules - almost 10 years newer.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. SuirpEvets

    SuirpEvets New Member

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    If you copy paste the data in that table I should be able to whip that up. Otherwise I'll have to transcribe it, which wouldn't be fun.
     
  10. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    The formula:
    - The first two digits


    There would need to be some sort of equation/formula that grabs the first two digits and sets them as the day.

    Then grabs the third digit and sets it as the month.

    The fourth character is the year, but that character is an alphabet letter.

    [​IMG]

    1 052IBA01086E 5/02/07

    2 052IBA01048E 5/02/07

    3 052IBA00857E 5/02/07

    4 052IBA00819E 5/02/07

    5 052IBA00972E 5/02/07

    6 052IBA01010E 5/02/07

    7 052ICG01545E 5/02/07

    8 052IBA01124E 5/02/07

    9 052ICG01544E 5/02/07

    10 052IBA00971E 5/02/07

    11 052IBA00933E 5/02/07

    12 26XRBT00212B 26/10/16

    13 052ICG01240E 5/02/07

    14 052IBA01161E 5/02/07

    15 052IBA01123E 5/02/07

    16 26XRBT00302B 26/10/16

    17 052ICA01199E 5/02/07

    18 052IBG00895E 5/02/07

    19 052IAG00824E 5/02/07

    20 052ICG01392E 5/02/07

    21 052ICG01393E 5/02/07

    22 052IAG00862E 5/02/07

    23 052ICG01430E 5/02/07

    24 052ICG01355E 5/02/07

    25 052IBA00858E 5/02/07

    26 052IBA00896E 5/02/07

    27 052IBA00895E 5/02/07

    28 052IBA00934E 5/02/07
     
  11. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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  12. SuirpEvets

    SuirpEvets New Member

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    Here's what I came up with.
    I've attached the excel sheet, but here's a copy paste and the formulas for each cell in text as well.
    It's not elegant, but it should work very well.
    upload_2019-3-29_17-1-30.png

    For the Day column I just used the LEFT string function.
    =LEFT(A2,2)

    For the Month column it was a little more complicated using a bunch of IF functions with the MID function to pull the 3rd digit from the string here.
    =IF(MID(A2,3,1)="X", 10,IF(MID(A2,3,1)="Y", 11,IF(MID(A2,3,1)="Z",12,MID(A2,3,1))))

    For the Year column it was pretty much the same as the month except that I used an IF function for every one which made it very very long.
    =IF(MID(A2,4,1)="A",1999,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="B",2000,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="C",2001,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="D",2002,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="E",2003,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="F",2004,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="G",2005,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="H",2006,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="I",2007,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="J",2008,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="K",2009,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="L",2010,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="M",2011,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="N",2012,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="O",2013,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="P",2014,IF(MID(A2,4,1)="Q",2015)))))))))))))))))

    Again, not super slick, but very simple and doesn't rely on a lookup table.
    Btw, I can modify the output slightly to either pull the zero off the front of a single digit day (i.e. 02 to just 2), or add a zero in front of a single digit month (i.e. 9 to 09).
    I can also combine this into complete date in whatever format in another cell.
    Hope this helps, and lemme know if you need anything else.

    - Steve
     

    Attached Files:

  13. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    I can confirm that we have a problem with the current Turnigy Reaktor range of balance chargers.

    I bought a secondhand Reaktor QuadKore (ie 4 channel) charger a few weeks ago and found it so useful that I ordered a second one from HobbyKing.

    I turns out that HobbyKing/Turngiy have changed the firmware last year (early 2018) and the current version doesn’t allow us to scroll and see the mAh charging/discharging figures when a charging/discharging cycle is complete.

    When module cycling (ie charging/discharging) has completed on the older Reaktor you just press the arrows to scroll left and right through the screens:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Also, on the older model the “D” or “C” would flash to show whether that module was being charged or discharged. On the newer Reaktor that letter stays on full-time, so you can’t be entirely sure whether it’s charging or discharging. On the older Reaktor:

    [​IMG]

    On the current model, when you try scrolling with the arrows instead of getting all the previous mAh figures you get this instead:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is NOT good.

    I saw some discussion on another forum which confirms this - link:
    Turnigy Reaktor 2x300W 20A Balance Charger now with NiZN and LiHV - RC Groups
    So, if you buy a Turnigy Reaktor that has the capability to charge NiZN and LiHV batteries then it’s got the new firmware and you won’t be able to see the charge/discharge figures after cycling a module.

    There is mention of the Charsoon Antimatter chargers, which are identical to the Turnigy Reaktors but supposedly have the old firmware.
    Charsoon Antimatter chargers are available from the Bang link: Charsoon Official Store Online Deals | Banggood
     
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  14. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Congrats on your progress on this.
    Fun stuff.

    So if you had a bunch of module you could just use the qr code as the inventory number. But I could see how it would be helpful to add additional fields for tracking as well.
     
  15. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    I recently bought a secondhand Turnigy Reaktor QuadKore (ie four channel, so can discharge/charge four modules at once) and found it so useful that I bought an additional new one.

    Hence, I found out that the new one doesn’t display the charge/discharge capacities like the old one did.

    I’ll go looking for another secondhand QuadKore but they pretty much don’t exist (I’m searching all over the world).

    I’ve taken some photos that will help determine if a Reaktor is the old or new version. I'm pretty sure that these apply to all of the Reaktor range.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    Ok, after spending waaayyyyyy too much time reading web sites and focussing too much on theory (that I largely still don’t understand), I’m finally going to do my first proper rebuild.

    I’m combining two 2007 packs into one good one.

    One pack has two dead modules and several others of too low capacity (and has never been opened until now).

    The other pack has modules all over the place - different capacities and two modules that are 10 years newer than the rest (ie early 2007 vs late 2016).

    What I’ve done (and please correct and guide me on anything that I’ve done wrong or missed):
    - Selected 28 modules within a 4,700 to 5,200mAh range.
    - Worked out an arrangement of modules where the ones with the highest voltage (ie the strongest?) are in the centre of the pack and the ones with the lowest voltages (ie the weakest?) are on the outside of the pack.

    Final Balancing: I have a Prolong charger and discharger. I assume that instead of linking all the modules for 24 hours like others have done, I can use the Prolong equipment instead?

    If so, should I run one cycle and discharge down to the first level on the Prolong discharge box (ie 134 volts)?

    Or, do a full three cycles with the Prolong charger and discharger?

    (Note: I’m still trying to work out what combination of individual module cycling and grid charging/discharging to use.)

    This is the pack that I’m trying to rebuild:

    Module 5 is too low mAh
    Module 8 is too low mAh
    Module 11 is too low mAh
    Module 12 is too low mAh
    Module 14 is too low mAh
    Modules 10 & 13 have a dead cell each (ie RIP)
    Module 22 is too high mAh (ie keeping within a 4,700 to 5,200mAh range)
    Module 25 is too high mAh (ie keeping within a 4,700 to 5,200mAh range)

    [​IMG]

    Someone I know recently paid someone $A850 to rebuild their existing pack, which then stopped working within a few weeks. Sam asked me to see if I could figure out why it stopped working.

    Well apart from modules 8 and 15 being completely stuffed, there are numerous modules of far too little capacity.

    Not to mention the almost 10 year gap between modules 12 and 16 (October 2016), and the rest of the pack (February 2007).

    I recall one of the experts on here saying one time that he won’t use any modules below 4,400mAh, so I’m assuming that should be the lower cutoff?

    [​IMG]

    My plan for the combination and arrangement of modules (silver = original pack, Sam = dodgy rebuilt pack):

    [​IMG]
     
    #2336 Phildo, Apr 3, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2019
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  17. Eddie26

    Eddie26 New Member

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    So which charger shall I use now, shall I go with the Hitec X4? or single chargers from Reaktor 300W
     
  18. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    You can build a pack out of a wide range of ah capacity. The trick is to build it with similar modules. I've seen very well balanced and matched low ah packs that kept the dash lights off. Of course it cycled on the battery screen quite quickly, but car ran with no hiccups.

    Hybrid Automotive has a users guide that goes through the discharge process in great detail. It goes over the stop limits for progressively lower discharging.
     
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  19. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    Apparently the Charsoon Anitmatter chargers are identical to the old model Reaktors.

    It appears that none of the current model Reaktors are of any use to us because none of them show the previous mAh figures from charging/discharging.

    The Hitec X4 has a very, very slow discharge rate.

    charsoon - Buy Cheap charsoon - From Banggood
     
  20. Phildo

    Phildo Member

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    I've also got a Hitech X4 AC Pro 44254 which I've just tried using.

    Like the current Reaktor models, the 44254 also doesn't give the charge/discharge numbers (ie useless).

    Looks like the Charsoon Antimatter chargers are the way to go. I'm probably going to order one of the four channel ones in the next few days (ie the Charsoon version of the Reaktor QuadKore).
     
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