Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by ryousideways, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Kiwi,
    I agree. The longer you can wait to load test the batteries the better.
    I have not heard of waiting one month, but I usually say wait 1 to 2 weeks if possible.
     
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  2. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    I posted screenshots in this thread about "individual module replacement" and why it may/may not work and why if more than one need to be replaced - it may not.:
    Prius Battery rebalance thread | Page 5 | PriusChat

    I have done the test recently because of that common scenario, sample of which I have posted on my site long time ago:

    28 Channel Battery Analyser in action – Prius 2009 - HYBRIDS

    In brief:

    1. Auto electrician (they used Techstream + Voltmeter) identified ONE bad module. Owner is in pursuit for a "good module".
    2. I got that pack for testing – result – 2 dead and 2 weak modules; Remaining – week pack donated to me for experiments (thanks L!);
    3. Since Sep 14 modules from that condemned pack together with leftovers from other packs were used from time to time in my Lab for testing new releases of software (it is alwasy good to have bad modules for tests) and 20; 28; 34; 38 – module charger’s designs. Modules were never overheated, overcharged or discharged below 6V.
    4. In less than 10 months 2 weak modules died. So 4 dead modules, 24 remaining – capacity is not great.
    5. July 15 – got pack, year 2009 with only 8 modules alive and 20 completely depleted (dead controller, dead orange wiring - that pack was killed by corrosion, I regret to not capture on video that thick black smoke coming from controller when I powered the pack in the Lab. Those 20 depleted modules were attempted to be be pulse charged - but not holding charge <1AH in double test mode.
    Special thanks to boys (thanks PA!) from Tauranga, New Zealand who brough that one for testing to Auckland Lab.
    6. 4 donor modules being put at the end of that pack from 2014 experiment (24 alive) and two charge-discharge cycles showed that DeltaV is above threshold – i.e. 4 modules perform differently although the pack was balanced (charge started from every module being discharged to 7.2V)

    What happened was:

    Two pairs of donor modules (they are not great but still different in performance from other 24) had their Load / Charge curves above / below (correspondingly) the curve of the rest of the pack (that is so called "swing") and the Delta V discrepancy was > 0.3V almost all way through displaying URC (Usable Remaining Capacity) of less than 0.5AH in that assembly.

    Bear in mind I can bypass any module in the test results to see how that module or pair was performing in comparison with the rest of the pack, so Delta V within the rest of the pack was <0.1V up to 2.8AH;

    7. Not finished yet. Next experiment is to simulate “Urban Leged” – i.e. “change one module and she’ll be fine, mate”: But because I can (see the bold statement above) I run the test with 4 donor modules but in pairs mixed with original ones - that simulates your "individual module replacement" scenario. So that I can see what has happened with that module and that pair and compare with the rest of the pack.

    Mixed last two pairs - as being assembled from one old and one donor module and captured [important] both load/charge curves of the whole pack charged discharged as a full assembly - looking for Swing and URC;

    8. Finally.
    Test results: URC of the assembled pack (URC is only relevant to assembled pack) was ~2.7AH - tested under 5A load down to when DeltaV became above 0.3V.

    Note: Normally that is not how the packs should be rebuild. Proper way would be a careful selection from a pile of modules tested under the same condition and matched modules will be selected for rebuild pack. That would be much faster process with better results and that is why I have developed the HV BAttery Analyser.
    This test I've conducted just to grab some visuals to comment on "Urban Legend", to have big poster in my Lab for those who ask me for "one module" and to publish Guidelines for those looking to pay exorbitant prices for unknown module on eBay to fix the pack of unknown condition. :)

    Conclusion:

    That demonstrates few things: “Urban Legend” may work if you are lucky – i.e.:

    - You ONLY have ONE dead module, the rest are all in conformance with each other;
    - The discrepancy of the donor module is minimal with the rest of the pack;
    - If any of modules in your pack are weak (can’t be captured by voltmeter) – the failure of your “fix” may be sooner than expected (refer to 2 modules being dead in less than 10 months with very rare usage in the Lab)
    - If you put a pair of donor modules as a “pair” – that may not work straight away.
    - I wonder how long will it take before eBay sellers start disclosing somethign like:
    "Remaining Capacity X.XAH tested 24 hours after fully charged down to 6V level under 6A load.

    If you find that post usefull - like it 5 times and I will upload test results - charge/discharge curves of the tests from above - non-mixed and mixed on imgur.com

    - Please play safe with High Voltage;
    - Beware of what you buy on eBay from clueless sellers for exorbitantprices;
    - Do not waste your time with individual module replacement unless you are absolutely aware of what the condition of the rest of the pack is and what the condition of the donor module is;
    - If you still wish to DIY and decide to buy the pack from re-builder – do not hesitate to ask them for the test results (e.g. URC, Swing etc) and how they came up with those.
     
    #942 kiwi, Aug 9, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2015
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  3. Josh B.

    Josh B. Junior Member

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    Wondering if anyone can help.

    I finally got to the point of balancing my pack overnight after reconditioning all the modules, put it back in and hooked everything up, minus putting all the trim back in. Cleared the codes and everything looked ok. First day I took it for a short 15 minute ride and everything held up.
    Today I took it out for about 40 minutes or so to put it through the paces of some hills and other types of driving, get the pack warm, and was happy to see my MPG steadily rising toward 50. Voltage max/min was holding between .10 V and .20 V differential between module pairs. Then, as luck would have it, I pulled into my driveway and parked and the red triangle came back with a P3000/P0A84 (Hybrid Battery Pack Cooling Fan 1 Control Circuit Low) error. I see that signifies the HV cooling fan has an issue.

    I took it out and cleaned it up at the same time I was doing the battery reconditioning and put it all back in, but I'm curious if there's something I might be missing or a wire to look for that may have been damaged while moving stuff around in the trunk? Could it be that the fan just died? I unplugged and replugged the connectors. I checked the fuse and that's ok. I know it was working before, too, as it was on full blast when my battery went bad.

    My 12 V battery seems to be ok. 14.1 V with ignition on and over 12 V resting. It dropped a bit below 12 V as it had sat for a period of time, but it's charged back up.

    Any advice on how to go about solving this issue or places I should look for wire breaks/shorts/etc?

    Thanks in advance,

    Josh
     
  4. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    I saw only once the temperature sensor mulfunction in Prius. Those are 10kOhm thermistors - the 10Kohm (but shape is different) are used in variety of power supplies in domestic electronics (cost few cents). Failed one was showing higher temperature than the others. Esy to check with voltmeter - resistance of all 4 have to be similar at the same temperature +/- 1kOhm.
     
  5. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    Hi Folks,

    It is time for me to ask everyone here for a small favour (cost you nothing - just couple of clicks):

    Please vote online for me before 30Aug2015 to help me win free Tesla’s Powerwall Home Battery with Solar Panel and Invertor – campaign run in New Zealand by Vector Energy.
    Please vote here:
    Future of Energy | Yury Botkov
    (Note: You can vote with Facebook or email - when with email -> Vote counts only after you click the link in email received from Vector Energy. Does not work in IE, please use Firefox or Chrome)

    Goal of my campaign - to get to the top of the list by midnight (UTC+12) 30 Aug 2015
    Right now I am #32 on the list with 120 Votes coming from all over the world, even from the yacht in the Pacific!

    Thanks in advance,
    Kind regards
    Y.B.
     
    #945 kiwi, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  6. gdanner

    gdanner Member

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    There's a pretty good chance that the root cause of this issue is with the wiring, or the fan controller module, or with the fan itself.

    There's certainly a lot of wiring between the HV battery ECU, the battery fan controller module, and the battery fan itself. First thing to check is that all plugs and sockets are are fully inserted, free of corrosion, and that no wires are damaged (broken off, clamped underneath bits of sheet metal, or shorted out). The fan controller module is a plastic box with some metal fins on it that's inserted into one of the plastic air ducts that attach to the battery fan.

    I suspect the P3000/POA84 code indicates a fault on the "fan control" side rather than failure of the temperature sensors inside the HV pack. Somewhere (hobbit's site?) I saw a wiring diagram for the HV battery fan section.

    Roughly speaking it works like this: The HV battery ECU outputs a control signal that goes into the fan controller module. The fan controller module is like an "amplifier" or a "relay" -- it responds to the control signal received from the HV battery ECU, and then applies between 0V and 12V into the battery fan motor, depending on what the HV battery ECU is telling it to do. There are 6 possible fan speeds (0 is off, 1 is very slow, 6 is full speed). I believe both the fan controller module and the fan motor operate on 12V. There may be a fuse for this 12V circuit? But I haven't had any problems with mine, so I can't tell you where this fuse might be located.

    After disconnecting the wiring harness plugs from the fan motor itself and from the fan controller module, you could then try applying 12V directly to the fan motor terminals. This should cause it to run at full speed. Has anyone on the forum run such a test?

    At any rate, it is the fan controller module that actually supplies the electrical power that causes the battery fan motor to rotate.

    There is also a feedback wire that goes from the fan controller module back to the HVbattery ECU: If the fan controller doesn't produce the correct voltages, or if the fan motor itself is faulty, this will signal a problem to the HV battery ECU and then it will throw a DTC code.

    You'll find more info by searching Priuschat for "battery fan"
     
  7. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    Using TS they will be able to activate the FAN via programm and see if it responds to commands.
    We are using different soft for that, but from memory TS had that functionality for hybrids...
     
  8. terramir

    terramir Member

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    I been reading this thread and well Some people were cursing the B word, I assume this is balancing. Also some people here seem to believe that NiMH cells cannot recover. There is a point where this is true, this is when the separator has been punctured by a too large crystal, however deep discharging of a module 5.4V to 4.8 depending on the load I'd recommend 5.4 on a heavy load then 5.4 after some rest with a smaller load. for a few cycles can recover capacity as well as restore so called "weak modules" however there is a limit to everything. but capacity as well as internal resistance build-up can be reversed by simply discharging the module to a point where there is no useful charge left in any of the cells with-out reverse charging a cell.
    battery packs been a hobby of mine long before the Prius came out. pulse charging is also an option to wipe out crystalline structures , but this should only be done once, during a recondition cycle, because we do want a small crytaline structure and regular carging is best for this.
    my $.02
    terramir
     
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  9. Josh B.

    Josh B. Junior Member

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    I found corrosion in one of the wiring harnesses. I'm in the process of cleaning/lubricating and will see if that solves the problem. Fingers crossed.

    Techstream did not respond to the fan activation. Live data showed that the fan would go to level 1 but not beyond. I am hopeful that cleaning the corrosion and applying lubricant to aid in contact and prevent further corrosion will solve it. It was only one pin on the larger harness that's attached to the actual HV fan.
     
  10. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    As always in electronics - it is either loss of contact where you need it or a short where you don't.
    Check male/female parts of the connector - if there is corrosion - you may also want to dismantle the plug to see in more details. Wires coud be black at the point where they crimped - do not panic - that is outer layer contact could still be present there.
    I once found absence of contact in 24 pin connector and absolutely no evidence of corrosion. That was fixed easily by compressing the female pin after disassembly of the plug.
     
  11. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Great insights kiwi.
    Seen similar things.

    That fan connector can sometimes have water drip on it from a leak along that inner sill.
    If you have rust along that inner seam, or in the battery tray area, the fan connector may also be affected.
     
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  12. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    Folks, sorry for off-topic - 9 days left for you to help me to connect to the future of energy and win competition for Solar Panels from Vector Energy featuring Tesla Powerwall. I am 20-th in the rank as of now with 177 votes so far...

    It is anonymous – you do not have to put your name in it.

    Future of Energy | Yury Botkov

    Voting takes only 45 sec, but please when voting – put in comments “supported by PriusChat members” – hence promoting this great place as well.

    This forum is one of these places where people have already put their hands on the “future of energy”, place where many bright ideas have been shared and members I believe are inspired to research, investigate, DIY and think critically and learn how to provide constructive criticism… Cheers.
     
    #952 kiwi, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  13. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    Kiwi,
    You've been nothing but obstinate and argumentative for months on here and now you want us to vote for you?????? Ummm, let me think about it... NO.
     
    #953 usnavystgc, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  14. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    Your particual Vote was not expected. Do not talk on behalf of others, though....
    I already got Vote from Arizona, so Arizona has already voted without you...
    Two Priuschat memebers have already voted.
    Member of another hi-tech forum comes tomorrow morning to free test his Prius. And he is well respected technical writer in the high-tech industry.
    Two days ago the Vote came from the yacht in the Pacific where you perhaps served and damaged some brain cells, mate...
    Private, you are dismissed....
     
    #954 kiwi, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  15. Britprius

    Britprius Senior Member

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    He does talk on behalf of others. No vote from me.

    John
     
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  16. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    He tells me not to speak on others behalf then he purports to speak for all of AZ????? Hmmmm? Does that make sense??????? I'll let you decide. :):):)

    If you read what I said, you will realize that I only spoke on my behalf about the vote (see below for the exact quote).
    "Ummm, let me think about it... NO." I highlighted "me" for you just in case you couldn't figure out what I was talking about.
     
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  17. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    Thanks for being honest, mate. Appreciate that.

    What I've learnt ages ago was:
    "Do not fear your enemies. The worst they can do is kill you. Do not fear friends. At worst, they may betray you. Fear those who do not care - they neither kill nor betray, but betrayal and murder exist because of their silent consent"

    Challenge is a simple way to figure out who is your friend, who is out there ready to back-stab you...the rest may just don't give the rat's nice person...

    Just got the Vote from George from Brisban, Australia. That was #180 (y)
     
    #957 kiwi, Aug 20, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
  18. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    I really like you. I understand you cannot hold yourself from time to time and may fall on the keyboard like you just did.
    Please do not take it too close to your heart. We do not want you having heart attack. Who else on earth will be criticising me then if not you? ;) You've heard that saying before: "what does not kill us - makes us stronger.."
    Even my unsuccessful rival - Thehybridshop is trying to be polite and the spy dogs they are sending now and then prefer to learn from me rather than spitting venom. I am kindly allowing them to do that as at the end of the day the end user - that is YOURSELF must be the one who should benefit from my development.
     
  19. jbmbenjamin

    jbmbenjamin Junior Member

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    Hope I'm not out of line here..... but there is a bigger picture.
    I just voted because I've been a lifelong professional advocate of energy conservation and solar power generation, both distributed and centralized. As such I want to support almost anyone willing to walk the walk and actually install and utilize solar power. The chances of that being a negative thing are very small, in my opinion.
    That being said, there have been times that I have been put off by the tone and demeanor of kiwi. I think the difference in his presentation is more due to cultural differences than anything else. And I just try to look past those differences and learn what I can from someone who assuradly has far more technical knowledge than I have. Just as I have been learning from all you other good people whom I have come to respect and be grateful for.
    Priuschat is a terrific community full of great people whose real aim is by and large to just help one another in whatever small or large way possible. My sincere thanks to all of you.
     
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  20. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    I saw it. Thank you for that.

    31 Aug - Update: Voting is now closed. I am In. Future updates will be posted on my site and my Youtube channel.
    Thanks for your support.
     
    #960 kiwi, Aug 23, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2015
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