Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

In those RC devices 8.7 could be wrong measurements. Try probing with good voltmeter during charge and see if it is the same. I saw 20% tolerance on RC chargers When I charge the whole pack with my HV chargers - voltage on good ones do not exceed 8.5V, if over 8.7 or close to 9.0 - is indicative of degraded modules.
Play safe

 

Hey guys,
What is HV battery terminal stud size?
What connection should be used to charge individual battery module for 3A current? alligator clip or fork terminal?

I am also looking for the model number of the battery module for different year. anyone has it handy?

thanks.

 

Not sure on the stud size but I use the yellow ring/spade terminals and they worked great. I would not use alligator clips for testing because you need a good connection for accurate readings (ring/spade are much better)

 

Battery poles - 5mm Metric thread If you are interested. But with the nut attached (Bus bars not removed) the best is to use "Bulldog" Connectors.
Hips of pictures on my site:

Prius Lexus Camry Honda Hybrid Battery Repair Rebuild Testing Equipment and Training

Those "Bulldog" Connectors are easily attached over the nut, insulated and rated for 5A or 10A. Made in Japan.

That is where efficiency (productivity) goes down the drain. To attach spade terminal you have to unscrew the nut a bit, to attach ring terminal - you have to remove the nut completly and put it back again. Not to mention more exposure to risks being electrocuted if the pack is still assembled. Use of ring/spade terminals was rejected as a non-efficient and risky at the very beginning of my research in "what's best for you". "Bulldog" connectors are very strong (rated at 5 or 10A) they provide good contact even on corroded "green" nuts. Alligator clips are soft and as you rightfully pointed out - may not provide good contact. I rejected them as well.

Few times had to re-cut the thread - have tools (die) for that.

 

That's where safety goes down the drain. No matter what your level of confidence and experience is the first thing you should do is remove the bus bars and nuts on at least one side of the battery. Working on your battery with the safety covers off the terminals and all modules connected in series is just asking for trouble. DIYers should be more concerned with safety and cost effectiveness than efficiency. Spade connectors tend to spread apart when they are used multiple times, for that reason I recommend ring connectors. Speaking from past experience, pull off the plastic covers and then solder the connections from your wire to your ring connector. If you want it insulated afterwards just use some heat shrink on it.

 

Thanks kiwi for the info.
BTW, do you know what is the battery model number from my 2006 (mid year) Prius? I am planning to buy one from ebay, and try to match the same model number. Thanks.

 

I used a nut driver with rubber lineman's gloves so there wasn't any concern when I took it apart (removing series bus bars, they need to be removed to work on them anyway with anyone using off the shelf testers/chargers) then just switched to nitrile gloves once the voltage was down to individual modules (no danger at module level voltage). Those bulldog clips are $10 each so I would have needed 60 of them to do my balance harness, in relation my 2 Hitec X4AC chargers only cost me $400 total. Now if you are in full production like you are testing complete battery packs at full voltage I can totally see why that is a good investment but for the average person doing a DIY I have to say it's a bit on the unreasonable side.

 

2006 is NHW-20 28 x 7.2V modules - same modules in Camry (34 of them), or newer Prius (28) except Prius C (20 modules).
I scrutiniesed offerings from all eBay sellers two years ago and just recently and I have not seen anyone on eBay selling properly tested battery packs or individual modules and spotted a significunt number of dodgy offereings (Note: I am not selling batteries on eBay).
I had visitor from Australia recently. I showed them how modules with different remaining capacity perform in the pack under same load. That changed their initial assumptions completely.
They themselves took my digital voltmenter and tested 7.8Volts on each of the old module in the pack in the idle state. That pack was sitting for a month after last charge.
Note - eBay sellers suggest "voltage" to be an indication of the "good Prius / Camry NiMH 7.2 module
Then we have applied load to the pack and few degraded modules dropped down to 6 volts in a few minutes (their remaining capacity was less than 1AH) and after load has been removed voltage sprung back on those to 7.5V in a few seconds.

Good luck with gambling with batteries from eBay!
With so many attempts being made here and there with individual modules replacements - you can not be sure nowadays that ANY pack is good unless you put it to the test.

It is never too much to remain everyone about safety.
Always remember to test Electrical Gloves for holes before use.
Hole in the "rubber" renders any "rubber" PPE useless.

 

I can vouch for this.........my modules were all fine voltage-wise and it wasn't until a load was applied that you saw the "bad" one appear.

 

This thread is valuable resource of first-hand experience from people of different age and background. Most of you are stepping on the same fork again and again, but because your level of skills, life experience, and business acumen is different - it is very beneficial to see what are those small things different people are struggling with.

IMHO - DIY - is where true professionals are growing from. One can't just be born as a Pro.

Latest fact (over my Skype support line last night) made me absolutely proud: they are The Oldest client for my HV Battery Analyser and it took them 3 days only from scratch to put two cars on the road with my tools. I would've thought - one would retire at that age. But I saw sparkles in their eyes and they are much more than a decade older than I am!

They spent a lot of time reading through numerous posts about "individual module replacements". They even took an international flight to New York for a training to learn "how to" just to discover that it is nothing but waste of time without proper tools.

In New York - they did not provide them with any tools at all (raising questions about true value of that kind of training). The only useful thing they’ve mentioned over there was "remember, pal the edges on the Prius pack are sharp" yeah, right...one surely had to go that far to learn that little...


After one day training in Auckland and being equipped with my High Voltage Battery Analyser and Charger kit, which they themselves put back together back home - they had already put one Camry and one Prius back on the road in less than 3 days, rebuild from about 6 donor packs. That is a record as of now.


Previous record was from another garage: Lexus was put back on the road in one week - the pack was rebuild from 8 packs tested on my HV Analyser and charged with my Charger.


There are at least 4 garages in California who speaks both of my languages which could make their training a breeze and they all aware of my tools but do not realise what my tools can do for them. They still practice individual module replacements and voltmeter is their "best friend". They are young - half of the century younger than my latest client for HV Analyser. I guess their clients for battery rebuilds in California need to wait till they grow up….Wisdom comes with age. I just witnessed that.

I should introduce special bonus for those over 60 coming for training to Auckland, NZ and learning the ropes in one day!

On that note: I am still learning from the questions asked here and during my hands-on classed in Auckland...to introduce even more efficient training. Thank you folks, love your comments...

New challenge for me now is – to make the Battery Testing Complex lighter without compromising technology – for it to fit in one courier parcel or even more challenging – in one check-in luggage. Currently it fits in two. Sounds like a challenge Lexus was facing when making first ever Lexus for US market 25 years ago…Engineers were saying "mission impossible" by then, we’ll see…

 

Kiwi,

I'll be honest that I haven't figured you out yet. At times it seems like your trying to help and at other times it seems like your just rambling. Either way I still read most of your posts hoping to learn something new because you seem like a smart guy. With that said I'm confused by your post above. In your example you said that it took 6 core batteries to build 2 usable packs and that was up from the previous record of 8 core batteries for 1 usable pack. Those are some depressing numbers my friend. It just doesn't seem like reconditioning/rebuilding these batteries would be worth the trouble as a DIYer or a business if it took that many donor packs to build a good one. How can the people you've trained source that many core batteries and not lose money? Did I miss something?

Matt

 

Matt, you have asked very good question. Although number of donor packs in two examples above are not reflective of the failure rate but rather of the timeframe it took them to go through 6 or 8 packs respectiveley to test them all. Number of cars being put on the road does not mean the number of packs they would be able to rebuild. I did not ask for that.

But the reality is: % of failed modules is huge. Sourcing huge number of packs in many cases for free is not a problem. If you want - you can easily find that you can have hundreds if not thousands of modules piled up in your warehouse in a few weeks. For free.
All depends on your business model. One example from overseas - the Garage is serving few Taxi companies. All cars belong to one owner (not to individulas). Although they make a lot of cash per night - when battery fails they are reluctant to pay $4K for a new pack but rather prefer to pay <1K to have their car back on the road with a rebuild pack swapped in less than 30 minutes.
Compiling the working pack where moduels are in conformance with each other is not an issue with my tools, the issue with all those numerous second hand packs is that big % have low remaining capacity. One experimental case was - the pack where moduels under load showed conformance with each other but URC was <0.5AH - made about 2000 kms before next failure.

Some car wreckers still think the batteries they are offering should cost a fortune, reality is - more and more people are reluctunt to buy untested second hand packs from wreckers even if the price seems to be low and they swear - "the car was running before it was totaled"...
I am personally offering wreckers free test of their packs in return there are few favours they can do for me..
It will not be for long before the business on eBay for selling untested unmatched modules will come to an end.
The business opportunity here is obvious - one is testing modules in bulk, one sells tested matched modules; one installes with confidence that those were tested and matched modules. Or that could be 3-in-1 person. Everyone can benefit and have their value added to the flow. Put "unknown" anywhere in that chain - and nobody has "business with confidence" anymore.

Up untill knowledge becomes widespread - eBay sellers will continue to sell untested modules which people would try to swap in the hope it will work. It may...for a while. Or may not..Gamble

Play safe...

 

The only source for that number of packs would be Toyota and I can't see them handing over their core batteries for free. The reason that dealers have to get the cores back is so that they are properly recycled and documented as such. I guess if you could get a contract with Toyota to recycle their core batteries then you would be set. Good luck doing that.

We don't find that to be the case at all in our shop. In fact I would say that a large percentage of modules have very good capacity and that's why we can re-balance them. Their are dozens of Prius owners here that have been able to measure capacity's well over 5000 mAh from most of their modules. The thing that is much harder to detect is series resistance and self discharge which are normally connected. We recycle several dozen modules a week that have measured capacities greater than 6000 mAh but have high resistance or won't hold their charge.

This is true but I don't know if the salvage yards here have gotten the memo yet because most of them still want $1000 for their junk batteries. When I first started testing and development for our business I explored the option of sourcing modules from salvage yards. I was appalled at how bad most of them were. I think I figured that out of 20 or so packs that were disassembled and tested, 3 or 4 would have worked if they had been installed.

I hope your right about this but like the salvage yard thing, as long as there are people willing to buy them, they will keep selling them. I purchased a handful of modules from eBay a long time ago and that was a failure. In the end it was a handling issue that posed the biggest problem. In a shipment of 100 modules 25 of them would be leaking acid. That indicated that they were swelling way past the design limits of the housings or they were being handled way to rough. The other issue that we became aware of is that hybrid battery theft is a growing problem and cabs are the main target. Thieves cut cables and rip batteries out of cars hours after a long day on the road. I'm sure that they take them apart while the modules are still hot from the days use, this leads to swelling which results in internal damage and leakage. Anybody who buys eBay modules should be concerned with how the seller obtained them and how they handled them.

In the end we were able to develop a business model that relies neither on salvage batteries, eBay modules, or crazy numbers of donor packs, and provides for proper recycling of hundreds of weak, failing, and failed modules. Effective testing, identification and removal of weak modules is the whole key to this process. You have to draw that line - everything on this side is good and everything on that side is bad. Where one draws that line depends on his goals. For most people here replacing the 2 or 3 worst modules in a pack and making it work for another year would be considered a success. If I'm selling a battery and I've guaranteed that it will last 3 years then I may find matching replacements for 10 to 12 modules, it just depends. I don't consider myself "the" expert at anything, there is always something new to learn. I hope that in the future you will share more about the types of testing you have developed and how they work so that we may be able to learn from you and improve what we're doing here.

BTW, I am amused that you keep going back and removing parts of your posts when you realize how silly they sound. Like:

1. Using my equipment, 1 hybrid battery was successfully built from 8 core batteries. (might not be a good marketing strategy)

2. Just the other day someone offered to give me 30 core packs for free

3. Cab companies make so much money that they don't care if a replacement battery fails in 1 week, as long as it was changed out quick.

4. A good business technique would be focusing only on high end cars like Lexus hybrids. - I don't know the sales numbers exact but I'd bet that the Prius out numbers every other hybrid on the road 10 to 1. 99% of our customers are Prius owners and I'd be crazy to ignore their needs.

Play Safe

 

I personally have a hard time believing anything kiwi says. He tries to make it sound like his knowledge trumps all others and that he has discovered something revolutionary that no one else can achieve. His way is the best and all other ways are just cow dung. There isn't much humility there and I never liked that kind of person. If you look at the way Texas Hybrid Batteries talks, its much more humble and logical. THB, I would trust you with my rebuild but I wouldn't even think of trusting kiwi with it. Sorry.

 

Do not be sorry yet. When and if you ever come to New Zealand as a tourist (may not even on a business trip) - just give me a call and apologise face to face, it would be more appropriate...

When Lexus planned to introduce their first ever Lexus on US roads 25 years ago, they used the same approach as mr. Toyoda used from the very beginning of building Toyota - "go and see by yourself" – part of “Toyota Way” culture. The team of people came to US from Japan and looked into tiny details of US luxury car market and reach people’s driving habits by then.

Business Culture is different around the world. We have been reminded about that in Washington D.C. during our Executive Management Training more than 15 years ago on a course: "Going Global...". Numerous Business Partners who were reporting to me at that time had no problems. USIA had no problems. People from D.C. whom I hosted in Moscow on many occasions had no problems. My guests from US, Australia and Europe in New Zealand had no problems. I've just gave permission to local Energy company to run checks on me and the clearance have been already provided ... No problems.

Here in New Zealand one guy told me once: you know you have "a problem" mate - you are "too honest".
I still wonder how one can be "less honest" and not "a lier" at the same time?

Mate, it looks like you have issues with trusting people. It does not help in business or private life...
I am equal opportunity entrepreneur and treat everyone equally..

If you have hard time believing then come to New Zealand, be my guest and see by yourself.
For you personally - 4 hours of My time in My Lab on Saturday (my private time - a luxury exclusive offer), plus one hour guided car tour around Auckland - all Free of Charge with no obligation to buy anything! Offer valid till the end of 2015, Christmas Break is excluded, prior booking is essensial as I could have made other comittments which I always meet 100%.

Play Safe



MERGED

1. Commented to you on that already - 1 out of 8 was not "a rate of rebuild success" - it was a testimony to some people's skills and the level of knowledge they have - a speed at which the person doing it first time back home managed to have everything up and running.
2. True story. Was offered piles of those. Primarily NHW-11 (38 module packs)
3. Cab companies in AUS, Gold Cost if you wonder. Replacement cost peanuts.
4. My business partner does exactly that. Where they live - they have that kind of demand. In there they also get piles of free packs. My Chargers and Analysers specifically made for Lexus are promoted to another regions and not to US.








MERGED

They would've if they could've....
"making it work for a year" means nothing without reference to ODO - e.g. I drive less than 8km to the office. Others drive 80kms.
10.000 miles I would assume is considered average ODO in US (correct me here).

How many people on this forum can make a statement that “after 2 or 3 (not just one, but 2 or 3!) individual module replacements their Prius (2004 - 2009) made another 10.000 miles?”
Please step up on the plate, anyone?

When you say you give 3 year warranty… too much IMO
If it is not confidential, then please answer that (if is, just ask yourself): "how many cars you provided with 3 year warranty more than 3 years ago and how many from those cars are still belong to your customers (not sold), have made no less than 10K miles per annum and did not claim the warranty yet?

Otherwise it sounds like a doctor saying that none of their now dead patients ever complained...

One guy from CA told me this: he gives 2 year warranty and keeps fingers crossed that they will never come back

Another one from US said that they only give 12 month unlimited ODO warranty, and they make sure their rebuilds have no less than 4 AH individual module capacity and wanted my tools to be able to do Quality checks to make sure that there is actually no less than 4AH URC in the pack.
Different garages different approach.

Suggestion for discussion:
Try to track down every rebuild pack after 3.000, 5.000 and 10.000 miles and make sure that the pack is still running fine. There could be an opportunity (your thoughts?) to offer another replacement pack to them at discounted price - to those who've made 5 or 10K on your rebuild - just to add it to the overall success story of rebuilds...

For other battery experts here who offer individual module replacements to clients – suggest offer one free module if that pack made 2000 miles after 1 individual module replacement. Thoughts?

 

I think this sums up your general attitude towards everybody on this forum. You think that were all wasting our time because we aren't doing it your way.

Your wrong and I'll explain why, in any business you have to offer value to your customers. A Prius owner can get a new battery installed at the dealership for $3600 and it will last 9 years (that's the average here). So a rebuilt battery for $1200 should be guaranteed to work for 3 years, lowering the price increases the savings value to the customer. As a business owner you have to determine how much value to add to your product to make it sell. I am still amazed that companies advertise to recondition batteries for $1800 or install a Dorman battery for $2000. Don't those people know that a brand new battery can be bought for $2500 and it'll last 3 times longer and add way more resale value to the car.

Your analogy doesn't make sense in this situation. Customers with dead batteries most definitely complain and write bad things about you and give bad reviews and tell all their friends and family ect.

I wouldn't even use a module that had 4AH of capacity left. We developed a process that restores every module (except the ones that already failed) back to 6AH and it's accomplished in a single cycle of the module. It greatly minimizes stress on the batteries and eliminates 100% of the voltage depression and imbalance in the cells of each module. While your worried about matching modules with the same capacity, to me it's a non-issue because their all equal. We focus on resistance and self discharge because those are truer indications of a batteries overall health and remaining life.

Glad you mentioned this because it is exactly what we've done. The only difference is that we retested batteries at 6, 12, and 18 months to measure their balance and health and see how they held up, so far the results look great. The customers who were selected for those replacements didn't pay anything for their new battery. Long term follow-up testing is essential to this business and a few hours of my time for free is well worth the data that it gets me. To date we've put 125 cars back on the road just in our small area. I believe the ability to successfully rebuild these batteries has already been proven. We're just trying to do it at price that makes sense.

Matt

 

Matt, I am Business Analyst and Auditor for big Telco companies in my other roles.
Attention to details and free independent unbiased way of thinking is what I am paid for in those roles.

If I were to put one of those hats on - I would've noted to you - that you have not provided direct answers or any factual evidence to my very much challenging and straight forward questions. All that lengthy blurb is emotional and I acknowledge you passion to defend your way of doing business "your way". As long as your customers are happy and coming back to you and refer you to others - nothing else matters.

Capacity, resistance, all that tech stuff majority of people who are looking into this tread of "Individual module replacement" sounds alien to them.

It is too late for you to delete your announcement - you may not realise that you've just shoot yourself in the foot by making the same mistake as another Matt from Hybrid Shop did on numerous occasions. They are still promising miracles (the latest announcement from them came on 22 Oct 2015 ) to the Garages of restoring batteries to 95% of design capacity, in your case you made it clear - you restore to 92.3% (6 AH out of 6.5%).

There are no miracles in regards to NiMH batteries and to make that claim one has to be either ignorant or be so confident that others can't check on their claims or think that others are so naive to believe every word you say .....

My High Voltage Battery Analyser can put those claims of yours to the test. Anyone's claiming miracles like you just did or The Hybrid Shop or another few.

My tools are not promising miracles - they are bluntly testing batteries.

The method of procedure one would use to rebuild is their procedure.
My HV Battery Analyser will show what the end result of that rebuild looks like.

Texas, US already has my tools. Any of your batteries you claimed being restored to 6AH can easily be arranged NOW to be put to the test.

Are you up to that challenge? I can arrange for that to happen...Surely your competitor will be more than happy to do that....

 

Once again you've insulted the group and proven how arrogant you can be. There are a lot of extremely intelligent people in this thread and on this site and I am quite certain that they can understand things as simple as battery capacity and resistance.

If it's hats that you want to compare ok. My background is in Nuclear and Mechanical Engineering specifically in commercial power generation. I have experience in instrumentation and control system troubleshooting in the same field. For the last four years I've been a data analyst for a global energy company. I'v clocked 1000's of hours reading graphs, trends, and charts for equipment optimization and predictive failure analysis. It still doesn't make me any smarter than the next guy.

I have no desire to to delete my announcement. You obviously have your issues with the HybridShop guys, I am aware of who they are and what they claim but it doesn't concern me. In my opinion their prices are so high that you'd be better off buying a new battery. And yes you figured the math right, 92.3%. Just to clarify, it's not always 6 Ah on the dot. It fluctuates between 5800 mAh and 6200 mAh, I just averaged to keep things simple.

This I would agree with. I will tell you that there is nothing miraculous at all about what I do, in fact it's very simple and logical and I'm surprised that more people haven't figured it out. Maybe they have and they just keep it to themselves, Dorman, GreenTec, TheHybridShop? Just a hunch.

Oh Kiwi, that was just what I was hoping you would ask. I accept your challenge sir. I will even do one better than that, if any posting member of this thread needs a battery for their GenII Prius I will give you one for FREE. You have to come and get it and I do need a core.

Kiwi, I just want you to know that I am neither emotional or angry about any of this. I have thoroughly enjoyed debating with you. In any future dealings that we may have I will always offer you the highest level of professional courtesy and respect. That doesn't mean I won't call you out if I think your wrong.

Matt

 

Maybe even... rehydrationings!?

amIright?

I would worship you as a god if you could do anything with my Gen1 pack. Holy moly... 36 dead (DEAD!) cells. 2 like new.

 

Sorry Keith, Those Gen 1 modules just don't bounce back very well. I should also point out that if a module has a resting voltage of 7.2 Volts or less when it comes out of a pack, permanent damage has probably been done and it should be replaced. Restoring dead or shorted modules would certainly be miraculous. Personally I think the guys doing the rehydration are crazy but they are entitled to their opinions and I hope them the best, drilling and cutting into batteries just never seemed like a good idea to me..

If you want to you can tell me the back story on your Gen1 modules. What have you already tried to do with them, how long have they been sitting, are they holding any kind of voltage at all? If I think there is hope I will help you.

I had a customer earlier this year with a 2002, I reluctantly agreed take a look at it. When I got to his house he admitted to me that the car had been sitting for 2 years since the battery died. I went ahead and took the battery out and removed the cover. It had all the normal Gen1 corrosion that had bubbled up in that goop that Toyota put on it. Of course there were several spots touching the case which had no doubt caused the HV Leak trouble codes that caused the car to be parked in the first place. I grabbed my Fluke and started pulling voltages, they were all 0. I apologized and tried to explain to him that there was nothing that could be done to restore his battery. In the end I got him hooked up with a Dorman battery with a 3 year warranty and a free installation for $1700. Personally I didn't think it was worth spending that much on. I lost a few bucks in gas on that job but it was much better than wasting my time on a battery that was way past the point of restoration.