Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

Claiming that capacity is naive. You better check your tools and methodology. There is no "revival of the dead" in this business. Did you use ABACUS for calculations? Some Professors still do
It is IMPOSSIBLE for the old used battery to have design capacity.
If there were a way - you would be retired millionaire on a beautiful island from your invention - as there are a lot of people who would wight you a big check straight away if that would be possible.

Has that been recorded and uploaded online for us to see?
We found so many unreasonable, naive, ignorant and sometimes simply stupid claims even from seems to be reputable companies around the world.
IMHO: 2004 year old NiMH battery which did have at least one module failed would NOT have Design Capacity of 6.5Ah. Never. Ever. Regardless what DIY'er will do with it. Tell that fairytale to the Department of Energy or to Idaho National Laboratory.
Those who fixed their vehicles from your donor modules were lucky to most probably having their batteries in the same poor condition as yours were.
Have a g'day

 

Kiwi,

My 27 modules were not dead and were fully functional, but with somewhat reduced capacity due to cell imbalance. The 28th had a dead cell, probably due to cell reversal.

Module capacity measurement was done under computer control during a full discharge (to 6v) of each module. It is accurate and every one of the 27 modules recovered to 6.5AH by the third discharge of the rebalancing protocol. I was also surprised that they did that well, but they did. Note that my Prius lives in a cool climate which probably contributed to the positive result.

I will not bother to discuss this any more with you as you are too opinionated for a good conversation. Good luck down under.

JeffD

 

No, about 4 hours is all that is necessary but many say to leave it connected overnight. As a check, I like to spot check a few modules after disconnecting them from parallel.

 

Why do you insist on talking so negatively to people? This is very insulting to my friend JD and he is an outstanding contributor here whereas the only thing I see you do is talk about how great you are. Well let me tell you something kiwi, you're not so great. You have contributed nothing to this forum yet. You strike me as one of those people that has an inferiority complex and the only way to make yourself feel better is by making others look bad. The way you come across has likely diminished your ability to get anyone to even listen to you any more. If you do say something worthwhile, we won't know because we stopped listening to you.

 

Is there more information here on PriusChat or somewhere elese about this?
Sound interesting.

 

as they used to sing in the Jackson 5 "one bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch girl"
I would suggest you contact battery MD here in California before you damn everybody in the industry as being unreputable. They have been reconditioning old battery modules for EV traction packs since the 1990's with no complaints - & well over 100 satisfied customers from the gen 1 rav4-EV to the Chevy S10 & Ford Ranger pickup EV's and on forward. That is especially testamentary because they offer a 12,000 mile 1 year warranty for their work. See ... some businesses still do operate from principles of character and integrity despite the others being so bad.
.

 

Here's how I see it.
There are very few sources that quantify the capacity of their used individual modules.
And even if they did it wouldn't help much since the average consumer has no way to test their own modules either.
So realistically it's just a shot in the dark for the average consumer to try to buy a module to match their pack.

It doesn't mean that those parameters don't matter though.

So folks will continue to buy used modules and hope that they will play nice with their existing packs. Sometimes it works; sometimes it doesn't. If you have time to play with it, it can save you money.
If you need a reliable vehicle for you and your family, you may need to look elsewhere.

M470BSA ?

 

Information on UK HV battery extended guaranty see link below.
Hybrid Health Check | Toyota UK

John (Britprius)

 

example is non relevant. you've mentioned business of reconditioning of Lead Acid batteries. That is not what this forum discusses.. The known "rejuvenation" of the NiMH packs is mentioned in known patents. And those tricks are eighther not practical for the general public or simply do not work on the batteries which are too old.

toyota.co.uk / service-and-maintenance / hybrid-health-check
Quote:
"The Toyota Hybrid Health Check is the best way to ensure the optimal performance of your vehicle. By scheduling the health check annually you can spot any issues early and respond before they turn into bigger problems.
A free Hybrid Health Check is now included with any Hybrid Service. But if you're not due a service for a while you can still benefit from the Hybrid Health Check at a cost of £39."
So it is not really FREE as was claimed suggested initially.
In other words - one can't just pop in with Prius and do that check for free.
That is what we've guessed at the first place....There is always a catch...or a fine print .. or a caveat clause...

That had absolutely no intention to insult anyone Nor your friend not friends of your friend. Humble apologies if that hurt your or someone else feelings.
For us English is a second language - language of business and does not contain much of emotions.
It is analyst/auditor/project manager hat which I am wearing most of the time and the long developed work habit demands documented facts, attention to tiny little details and timely delivery on the promises we or others are making. Just a reminder for me that forum is not a job, should've left that hat at the entrance...

 

If you would re read the information you will find the check is free when you have the normal service carried out. There has been no increase in cost of the service since the introduction of the scheme, this makes it free. The service costs the same "Toyota does published, fixed price servicing in the UK" even if you decline the hybrid check or if the car is not eligible the price is the same. Most owners in the UK have the services carried out at the dealers for two reasons.
The service costs in the UK are not expensive (fixed price).
Having a full set of service stamps in the service book greatly increases the sale ability, and price of the car in the UK.
The gen2 Prius in the UK is serviced every 10,000 miles so a service is due at 100,000 miles, this co insides with the expiry of the original guarantee. If you drive a lot of miles you may have the car serviced 2 or 3 times a year the car will be rechecked each time and a further extension of 10,000 miles will be added. This carries on till the car is 10 years old, but the millage could be 250,000. I see no added cost anywhere in this.
Now perhaps you will answer some questions from previous posts that you have left unanswered, instead of trying to pick holes in genuine posts.
You are rapidly discrediting yourself and your product, that as far as anyone hear knows may not exist since apart from a silent video showing very little we have no other details. Apart from the fact that it is not available and will not be sold to us I really do not understand why you are appearing here. Probably a troll.

John (Britprius)

 

What? no - I've never mentioned lead acid batteries. In fact if you'd look at the vehicles I mentioned as examples, or looked @ battery MD's web page you'd have seen that I wasn't talking lead acid. Maybe you just presumed lead acid because battery MD has been reconditioning modules since the 1990's? ... Maybe you didn't realize nickel metal hydride batteries have been manufactured for production EV's for that long? They do it all

.

 

Ok, I've made my determination, kiwi is a troll.

 

Troll? Interesting observation. Guess I still don't have a handle on what constitutes being a troll. Whatever.

The equipment he shows in the video could be helpful to some segments of the community.

Basically it looks like a way to measure and record various data about a set of batteries when they are not installed in the car. It looks like it can do a series of charges/discharges in one sitting rather than the sequential process of using a single hobby charger. Not sure it would be cost effective, but might be another fun gadget to acquire nonetheless.

Techstream does show some of this data when the battery is in the car, but not all of it. Of course you cannot charge/discharge modules individually via Techstream.

 

Its not just about his product, have you read his posts? He is seemingly only interested in making others look bad. He likes to talk down to others, immediately discount all opposing views and puff himself up. I'm pretty sure he revels in degrading others.

The equipment may very well be great and helpful to some. My statement was not based on equipment but on the general demeanor he exhibits on nearly every post.

 

O.k. Got it. Thanks for the clarification.

 

- Thank you very much for sharing that link. Have not seen that site before. Today - looked at that - they are using "hydrogen management system" - for us it means those folks are as serious about safety as we do.
- They honestly say, quote: "

• HEV battery remanufacturing (reconditioning) assembly line developed and validated.....* Operational since 2006." End of quote.

So 90's are not about Prius HEV but rather general experience in related areas.

John, Thanks for detailed description of how [free] testing is done in UK and what's in it for you - that last bit is most important. That somehow echoed in NZ with taxi drivers - they are buying some extra service options from Toyota and getting freebees in return. Still not sure that it is entirely free but that is not the angle we are looking at it.
Answering to your questions and some other people concerns:
There are are few reasons [as of today] why we are here:
1) to understand how would DIY'er react to the sales of the HV Battery with the known measured capacity from the battery rebuilding/car wrecking companies, who are our target customers. There were two replies so far - one in favor and one "don't care". If approach is corect as we believe it is - then what would be the fare price?
2) Battery Analyser is available for business [with couple of final decisions to be made on the plugs to be used]. We were planning to ask forum users to suggest us what would they recommend for us to use as the one 15/20/21 pin plug for the Analyser. We've b0ught some expensive plugs (circa 135NZD per set) - those good but bulky.
The set has to be multiple pin (15 or 20 or 21 pins) - similar to what is used in aviation industry or navy or robotics: male for the box and female for the cable coming from the battery - so that contacts can't be accidentally shortcut-ed or touched metal surface if the cable is dropped. Has to be robust to encounter multiple disconnections, isolated and allow bending at the gland. Pins to be able to withstand high voltage low current, preferably non soldering solution and good isolation on the inner plug side.
3) Last nigh finished discharge test (finished after midnight, still sleepy) of NHW-20 year 2008. Initially fully charged to 8.49 - 8.5 V cell simultaneously (all assembled in serious) then after a while discharged at 2.5A, measured all 28 modules simultaneously by two 19-channel Analysers (engaging 14 channels on each of them and using one load for the whole pack - i.e. the same current through the pack). Discharge test took less than 2 hours including connections.
End result - Battery Pack Capacity measured on the individual module level is at least 3.9Ah which is 60% from the design (nominal) capacity. (That pack is from the wrecked taxi, I've dismantled it myself - have the Rego#, VIN details and WOF history which tracks ODO. That taxi has made a lot of kms before crash. I have printed history of ODO during its life - that was the reason for buying that pack in the first place - for pure experiment).
That 3.9Ah is the the capacity of the battery module (one of the 28) which has reached 6v level first. Others were little bit higher (just a little) but we stopped discharge. Software allows to see immediately what capacity was at any chosen level of discharge (e.g. at 7.2V)
We continued video recording which showed voltage crawling slowly up to 6.7 volts after load was disconnected.
Conclusion - Full Charge Capacity (FCC) (we guessed it would be more than 50%) has been confirmed to be 60% from Design Capacity of 6.5Ah. Difference between modules is little so the pack is fully functional - no re-bulding is required.
The question we are curious about now is: how much those 28 modules (60% FCC) should be sold for? (% from brand new price - which is in New Zealand is $3000 NZD + GST (last week quote from Toyota)
Suggestions?
4) Why we are not offering Analyser for the general public - is simple as that - components to build it is in thousands $ plus labor - we would not expect folks here be keen.
5) However we are capable of creating something affordable (our developer was tasked to look at it) to allow you folks to test your Prius without dismantling battery from the car by means of something better and cheaper than Techstream and affordable. The question here would be:
- Do you need to be able to see all Trouble Codes from All systems and erase those as a simple tool (CAN Cable + Soft on PC)
- In regards to the Battery of your bellowed Prius/Camry/Lexus etc - knowing our abilities and Prius limitations when the battery is on the vehicle - what is your "must have" feature list for the software looks like?

 

yes sorry did not mean to imply the experience went back to 1990's Prius but other plug in vehicles

 

Apology was already given to those who felt that way..

We know what Troll (in regards to forums) means as well as Oxford Dictionary explanation of it.
Can assure you: "Legolas", you've missed again... - not a Troll.

FYI - In Russia - Prius is commonly known as a "Trolleybus"

To make one smile - could we suggest a new meaning to the word "troll" to be included into the Oxford Dictionary?
How about
"Trolley's (plural). Unhappy owners of the modern hybrid vehicles, because of their frequent failures"

FYI - we do not have hybrid car, because we do not want to be unhappy... we are building solutions which make other people happy...

 

Kiwi, at last we are getting somewhere. Obviously buyers of reconditioned batteries would prefer to buy a battery with a known capacity and with a guarantee "the longer the better". However if your equipment cost is high as you say it will be this cost will be passed on to customers who buy the batteries tested on that equipment.
There will still be people such as myself that will not buy a complete refurbished battery from a reconditioning company, but would prefer to save costs and do it themselves even with the possible risks.
I also feel that "and I could be proved wrong" that vehicles will move away from the current nimh technology towards lithium. These will not be serviceable making your equipment redundant in the longer term. It is also possible that a manufacturer will produce replacement nimh modules at reasonable cost in the aftermarket sector. There is also I believe a replacement for the Prius using lithium already in or near production.
As far as your above post is concerned I believe you have it wrong again. The Prius hybrid range of cars has one of the highest customer satisfaction and reliability ratings of all cars. Like any other vehicles there are a number that have early problems, but these are few in comparison, and Toyota has generally treated customers well even out of guarantee.
The word Prius is Latin, and means "To go before"
A simple product that would recondition modules that could be linked to a home PC or laptop to produce reliable figures would sell, at reasonable cost. Something along the lines of the RC units but with computer onscreen control instead of the LCD display. Charging even just 4 modules most DIY's would buy particularly if you could add extra charging units as add on's for faster results.

John (Britprius).

 

As a comparison, there are consumer-focused charger/dischargers for Honda packs that are not as feature filled as what kiwi is describing, and those cost $600-$1,000.
While there are some takers, not sure that price fits within the realm of "reasonable cost"?
With as many features as kiwi is describing there is no way it could/should be as cheap as sub-$100 hobby chargers.

If a battery pack seller could provide data about their packs that included capacity, they should rightly, be able to charge a premium for their packs.
If a shop were to purchase this kind of equipment, some of the cost would be passed along to the customer.

I know of shops that do scan/refurbish services now and the estimate cost for the service is $1,200-$1,800.
Again, while there are some takers, not sure that price fits within the realm of "reasonable cost"?

For me, since this is my specialty, I have a variety of diagnostics tools and equipment. $1,000 for the equipment would be totally worth it; I'd buy it this afternoon if I could. But $1,000 might not make sense for the consumer who has only 1 battery pack to assess.