Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement

I agree totally with what you are saying.
Kiwi is saying from reading his post 159 "quote" The components to build it are in the thousands of $ plus labor. He would obviously have to add development costs, overheads, and profit to those figures.
I am suggesting that for DIY purposes a smaller basic unit would only sell in perhaps the sub $300 range, this making use of a PC or laptop. This is not beyond the realms of possibility even using the current RC chargers modified. Kiwi goes on to say he has asked the developers to look into the possibility of something affordable. I envisage something more sophisticated than the units we are currently using, "more current discharge capability and better monitoring" without the all singing all dancing 40+ module capability that for someone like yourself would be a big time saver with reliability tests thrown in.
We have the various low cost methods of monitoring the HV battery in the car. It is the speedy charge cycling and monitoring of several modules that the DIY's would find useful.

John (Britprius)

 

I've watched the charger business for quite a few years now.
Based on the market today, I don't see a way for a consumer unit to be under $600 that would be able to provide module level information. And certainly not if you want it assembled in the US.

Currently the $600 consumer grade Honda hybrid chargers can provide pack-level detail, but not module-level data. (discharger is extra)

The nearly-$1,000 consumer grade Honda hybrid charger/dischargers add additional capability like output this data to a computer, graphing, etc but still do not provide module data; just pack-level data.

These units are assembled in the US and are made by very small hobbyist/small businesses.

There are higher level hobby chargers that can provide most of the features you describe, but even those cost well over $400 once you add in the needed add-on accessories. I would end up spending more than that, since I like to really geek out my chargers.

 

Some of those who are buying packs now are already feeling the pain. we guess.
We aim to reduce what is currently passed onto end user and give that end user some transparency on what they are buying. In other words it is win-win approach for the garage and for the end user.

Last week we were advised by reputable re-builder from CA USA: about 10 re-builders have already joined recently created "50.000 US dollar club" - paid 50 grands EACH!!! And they will be paying $100+ for every test they will be making.
That is DEFINITELY going to be passed onto consumers! No doubt. The question remains - will they tell the customer the Full Charge Capacity (We use this terminology for the used battery)

We suggest different approach. No joining fees. No royalties. No expensive franchise. We are aiming to make Analyser (w/o charger and load) under $10.000 US (hardware + software license inclusive).

Maybe we could make a 14-channel option under $5000 (no charger/discharger) if 100 units are backed. Just express your interest (no-obligation pre-order through the web site) and we will look at sourcing components in bulk. You'll be able to test pairs and 1/2 the 28-moduel pack at a time on the individual module level. For every backer we would be able to provide detailed instruction on how to build your discharger and how to build the 238VDC @ 1A charger the way we did it (<$1000).


To make our Analyser cost $1000 - not practical today, unfortunately. The industrial components used are expensive and BOM cost much more than that. That is even without charger and discharger.
Discharger is cheap as it is just a load - i.e. powerful resistor. You can build it by yourself from under $100-300 in US depending on demand for discharge current/power.
Building Charger is a challenge from price, usability and safety perspective. Some Russian-American engineers in California (no affiliation with those smart cookies) are selling DIY kits of their chargers from under $1000 US. And almost twice as much if they build it themselves. Not cheap again.
We can probably make ours under 1000$ excluding shipment.
But you have plenty of DC CC Power supply manufacturers in US. And you can build one yourself.
Almost any CC SMPS charger can work with our Analyser if you need to measure and graph charging cycle.
If you just after discharge cycle capacity test - you can charge with whatever you have.
Analyser is a "man in the middle" between your battery and charger/discharger .
You actually may need to observe charging cycle as it saves your time with very old modules - you can see fast crawling bars on those bad modules straight away. So within the first few minutes you can stop the test and discard those modules. Proved to be reliable with dozens of tests being conducted on NHW-10 (you don't have those 40 "Bamboo" packs in US - those in the video) and NHW-11 modules.
Our chargers (have now built a few) are charging @ 1A-1.2A. For the second hand pack to bee fully charged - 4-5 hours is enough.Those are made from commercially available SMPS which we've sourced a dozen - second hand under $500. Modded circuitry. Added extra components + man-hours for soldering, riveting, threading and other metal works.

For what Britpris wants - 4 - module charger/discharger - those are available from RC related online stores. We have one of those donated to us. Few inconveniences - one of 4 modules inside that device has already died. Discharge current is limited to 1A . And you have to disconnect battery modules from each other if you want to test them simultaneously - i.e. you have to dismantle Prius pack - remove the bus bars. But it is still good tool - for example to charge ONE module a little bit inside the pack if the need be.
Our Analyser doesn't require bus bars to be removed. Batteries are still connected in series.
Our Analyser can handle high current. If you have Charger or load to pump 10-50 Amps - Analyser can handle it (appropriate wires would be required of course if you go for more than 10Amps).

Give us a few days to compile video of that NHW-20 pack charge-discharge video (2 x 19 channel Analysers in action).

 

An update. I fixed the broken sensor wire so no more P3030 code and also changed the AC clutch. Car runs great but still geting the warning triangle and hybrid battery warning light. Not pulling any codes with my OBD II scanner and am able to reset but code warning lights come back as soon as I start driving. Car drives great otherwise. Do I need a more sophisticated scanner or take it to Toyota for a diagnostic?

 

I would recommend the Mini VCI ($25) and your laptop for scanning. This is cheaper than going to the dealer and will be useful in the future on any Toyota.

John (Britprius)

 

Here is a link to the 4 page diagnostic report of the car I pulled the HV battery from: http://www.wetfeethawaii.com/toyota-diagnostic.pdf I did not change the SMR but car runs fine.

This is the scan tool I have now which is not pulling any codes:
ScanTool.net LLC - ElmScan 5 Compact -- ELM327 based scan tool - ScanTool.net
Do you think the Mini VCI would be better?

 

Warning!!
Battery block 5 looks horrible!!!
10.03 volts!

The rest are at 15v or more.

Or block 5 is at 15v when the rest are ove 17v. Not good.

 

Far better. It comes with Techstream, the program the dealer uses and will read everything also does all the service tasks. It will work on any windows laptop, but W98se / XP / or Vista are the quickest to set up. W7 or 8 take a little more time and effort.

John (Britprius)

 

Thanks John for your quick replies. Yes I did replace block 5 already, but that is the only thing I did besides clean the contacts and fix the broken sensor wires. The battery shown in the diagnostic went into a 2001 with less miles but had a totally dead HV battery. And this other car that the battery is in now is the one with everything fine exept I can't get rid of red triangle and HV warning.

 

Ah. o.k. I figured you must have seen that, but just wanted to be sure.

 

This evening the red triangle disappeared without a reset. I'm thinking the car was not driven for awhile while I fixed the broken sensor wire and AC clutch so though it was drawing no error codes the blocks may have been unbalanced and driving it for a few days may have resolved the issue?

 

G'day folks
Who could possibly done the following with the use of your TS on NHW-20 Prius:
Recorded a dynamic file of the Battery Data Live when you perform the Idle test (gear in rear and foot on brakes) from Idle to the point when ICE starts and then till ICE stops.
And share the recorded file.
Just mention how many Miles or Kms that battery has done - no any other info is needed.
We are looking for more statistical data on the thresholds of the charge switch on/off on different Priuses, in particular:
- At what SOC value the ICE on your car will start (there should also be change of few other parameters from OFF to ON) and at what SOC ICE will stop (as the charge has stopped).
- Pair values at that point in time.
I am mapping capacity readings done by the Analyser connected to the fully assembled battery with the standard on-board readings of NHW-20. As with any analysis - the more sample tests - the better the results.
Thanks,

 

I'm setting up Hitec X4 plus and have a question on the sequence selection (charge/discharge). Do I want to set CHG>DCHG or DCHG>CHG?

 

You want to end up with a fully charged module and that is the result if you discharge first. If you charge first, you have to do an extra charge step after the multi-cycle step.

JeffD

 

Makes sense. Thank you very much.

 

I haven't looked at this thread for a while and I'll likely use it as a reference as I'm getting ready to rebuild my traction battery as well. Unfortunately the thread has grown from more than a few posts of people selling charging systems made for commercial garages, second guessing electrical engineering professors/professionals and coming up with other misc frivolous arguments as to why people shouldn't be doing this at home. I think people who are smart enough to follow this thread (more than a few engineers in here, myself included) are also intelligent enough to decide where credibility is due.

On a more positive note luckily for those of us looking to use the empirically proven DIY approach there are also others out there willing to blaze new trails and help each other learn both the theory and the application of working on hybrid vehicles today (this isn't rocket science after all). Hopefully the thread will continue along that line so that all may benefit from the ongoing discussion and information sharing.

Might be nice to also have a suggested setting section for the Hitec X4 and Thunder T6 chargers since many are using those in the rebuild process (and if you get the settings wrong it can be bad news for your battery rebuild efforts).

 

I put my charger settings for the Hitec X4 here in case anyone is looking for them:

Prius Battery rebalance thread | PriusChat

 

I have taken the time to read everything. In this thread.

Great work by most people here .

i do not think i can afford the time nor have i the expertise to balance each of the cells.

So my questions are as follows

are the batteries on a generation 2 and generation 3 prius the same ? if so , will it be better to get generation 3 prius battery from the salvage and replace it as it is on my generation 2 2006 prius or must i go for a new toyota battery ?

any help will be appreciated.

John i noticed that you're very active uk member , i on the other hand live in Ireland where there are not very many of these cars.

Do you think there is any other way round where i am not technically involved and can get away with a cheaper fix for my 2006 Prius. Thanks

GT-I9100 ?

 

The batterieson the gen2 and gen3 are not interchangeable as complete units. However the internal modules of which there are 28 are. The gen3 modules are electrically better than the gen2 and of course are newer. There is no evidence as yet that they last any longer, so purchasing a gen3 to use the modules in a gen2 battery is perfectly ok if you have the capability to change modules.
Has your battery failed or are you just checking your options in case of failure? As your car is a 2006 if the battery is still ok you can get the guaranty extended for one year or 10,000 miles by just having it serviced at no extra charge, or by paying the equivalent of £39 for the hybrid check. This can be repeated as many times as you like, "no millage limit" until the car is 10 years old.
Let me know your situation, millage, and I will see if I can help.

John (Britprius)

 

Thanks John. The battery failed 5 weeks out of warranty, I can change modules but balancing etc are beyond my reach..

Any suggestions where you think i might get a generation 3 battery from salvage.

Also do you think it will be ok if i just take the battery out the switch the modules around and put them in without balancing as balancing and all i do not have the equipment for.

I forgot to mention the car was first registered on the 10th of february 2006 is the current metre reading is 150,000 kilometres. The hybrid warranty was for a period of 8 years from the date of first registration or 160000 kilometres whichever comes first. Toyota ireland have applied letter of guarantee to three tee and knocked out my appeal. The dealer also put in a special appeal to get a gesture of goodwill but that has been turned down as well. So i'm in a complete fix now.

Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated .

GT-I9100 ?