Gen2 Slip Indicator, CEL, Hybrid Malfunction and ABS All On

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by MartinGale, Jul 7, 2017.

  1. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    My 2007 Prius with 138,000 miles gave me the red triangle last week. I remember the (!) was also on. Car did not charge traction battery. Drove the 10 miles back home and checked codes.

    P0A80
    Replace Hybrid battery pack

    And

    P3013
    Unknown diagnostic code

    I surmised the battery was done. Fuel efficiency has been declining. I am in Texas and temperatures were in the high 90s. I had observed that I could park car (even in cool weather) with 3 or 4 blue bands showing on MFD. When I started the car the next day, it would frequently be down to 1 or 2 purple bands.

    I read that (!) error could be false code due to the hybrid failure. 12v battery is relatively new. Even after charging 12V to 100% there is no change in situation. I ordered the Prolong Deluxe Reconditioning Package. After receiving and installing, I started the reconditioning.

    June 30 9:22pm Initial hybrid battery voltage during charging was 226V at .358A. Temp below 90 degrees.
    June 30 11:44pm 235V at .359A Charge
    June 31 7:45pm 237V at .359A Charge
    June 31 11:43pm 238V at .359A Charge
    July 1 12:52 234V at 1.474A Discharge set to 134V
    July 1 11:20am 161V System idle. I do not understand why the discharge cycle stopped early.
    July 1 12:50pm 164V at.001 to .497A Charge Fluctuations seem odd tomme.
    July 1 2:26pm 168V at .001 to .526A Charge Still fluctuating.
    July 1 3:14pm 213V at .360A Charge
    July 1 8:35pm 229V at .359A Charge
    July 1 10:46pm 232V at .359A Charge
    July 2 9:40am 236V at .359A Charge
    July 2 3:20pm 232V at .359A Charge
    July 2 3:23pm 229V at .359A Discharge set to 134V
    July 2 4:55pm 202V at 1.458A Discharge
    July 2 5:34pm 190V at 1.455A Discharge
    July 2 7:39pm 168V System idle.
    July 2 7:39pm 163V at .466A Discharge set to 84V
    July 3 10:14pm 122V System Idle
    July 3 10:15pm 127V at .475A Charge
    July 4 11:23am 236V at .359A Charge
    July 4 2:27pm 234V at .359A Charge
    July 4 4:36pm 231V at 1.471A Discharge set to 17V
    July 4 9.02pm 23V at .221A Discharge
    July 4 9:38pm 79V System idle
    July 4 10:20pm 99V at .122A Charge
    July 4 11:40pm 213V at .360A Charge
    July 5 12:43pm 222V at .360A Charge
    July 5 11:17am 234V at .359A Charge
    July 5 8:37 237V at .359A Charge
    July 6 6:18pm 233V at .360A Charge
    July 7 1:59pm 220V static voltage.

    Computer starts up but no ICE and transmission will only go into neutral. MFD showing 1 purple band. Had been showing 2 blue bands earlier. No codes but lights still on with the Slip Indicator, CEL, Hybrid Malfunction and ABS All On.

    Put charger on 12V and trying to charge hybrid battery again to see if it will ever actually balance. Never did see voltage floating during charging. Charging Current never varied except immediately after turning charger on.

    Anyone have any ideas?

    Thanks
    Martin
     
  2. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Welcome to your first post on Prius Chat (y).

    The discharge of showing idle just means it achieved the voltage the discharger was set to.

    I did a reconditioning over Memorial Day weekend and only did the 134 and 84 volts. Didn't do the 17 volts. The fluctuating of amperage up to 202 volts is normal.

    How long after the last charge cycle did you wait until you tried starting the car?

    @jeff652 will be along and can provide more info.
     
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  3. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Any chance you pulled the safety disconnect while installing the prolong and then didn't completely insert it using all 3 steps? Slide in, lift lever to vertical position, push lever straight down to engage interlock. Your symptoms sound eerily similar to what happens when the last step isn't performed.

    Also, I'm very curious if the prolong solves your issue. You had a failure, and then installed the prolong. Every failed hybrid battery I've worked on has had at least one module that is not recoverable. If yours falls into same category, your battery will be effectively still in failure mode until the failed module(s) are replaced. THEN, the prolong will be of effective use.
     
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  4. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    I waited a couple of hours after disconnecting from charger before attempting to start.

    Today I removed and reinserted the safety disconnect. Attempted to start again with same errors showing. I decided to disconnect both the 12V and the traction battery for a couple of hours. I allso got my old Android phone out so I could use Torque. Connected both batteries and pressed power. Same thing. This time there was a P3014 error but no P0A80. I reset the codes and power cycled the car. The red triangle of death was gone. The ICE fired up, running really roughly for the first 3 or 4 minutes. Eventually smoothed out. Let it run for a total of about 25 minutes. At one point the ICE would stop and almost immediately fire up again. The red triangle of death came on again. During all this the traction battery did get out of the purple to mid-scale a couple of times but quickly discharged while the ICE was running. I removed the Prolong pigtail and put the car back together. I will take to a dealer tomorrow and see what their diagnostics reveal. I fear that if the dealer saw the Prolong pigtail, they would say that was the cause of the premature failure of the traction battery.

    I assume that I have two bad battery packs. If I cannot get a good deal on a replacement from Toyota, I will probably try to salvage the battery by replacing bad packs and further my education. Fortunately, I have a digital VOM with a USB data port. Should make going through the testing and logging the data much easier. Unfortunately it will still be time consuming. Would really prefer to get a deal from a dealer and move forward with my life, meaning driving my little electric car. It is a running joke, because I drive all over DFW on CraigsList quests. With a car that you can drive for cheap, there is no reason to not go where you want. Factoring in the cost of a new battery at full price will mean it is no cheaper to drive than the Chevrolet Impala I replaced.

    Unfortunately, the nearest dealer is not someone I care to deal with. Had bad experience on an evap code on a Camry. They insisted on replacing the exact parts I had already replaced since I had used aftermarket parts. They were all Japanese parts, not stuff from China. After forking over nearly $600, which included a $30 Toyota gas cap which had been replaced and tested, the code reappeared within 30 miles. I persuaded them to do a free smoke test on the car. They did the test (I am being really generous here) and the Service Representative (again being generous) said that the shop filled with smoke. Would I like to come look. They had no clue about how to cycle the evap system during the test to see what state the system was in when the leak appeared. They were happy to report there was a leak. Fortunately that test was free or there would have probably been a loud noise when my head exploded.

    I appreciate the help. Please notice that there was virtually no fluctuation in the amperage while charging. The exception is when the charge cycle was initiated for the first hour of charge the rate was higher. After that there was virtually no variance in the charge current. Seems odd to me.

    Thanks to TMR-JWAP and Raytheeagle. I had high hopes that I had not gotten the safety disconnect properly seated. I would have gladly taken the fall for it not working.
     
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  5. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Thanks for reporting back.

    Sorry your experience was not positive.

    Good luck(y).
     
  6. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    You should simply replace block number 4 and balance the pack.

    No need to waste money at the dealer
     
  7. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    May seem odd to you, but that is the way it is – a fixed rate of current charging system,
     
  8. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Martin,

    Your hybrid battery is built using 28 individual modules assembled as 14 blocks of 2. They are connected in series. Block 1 is the 2 modules farthest from the ecu side. Block 14 is the 2 modules closest to the ecu side.

    The P0A80 code says you have a bad hybrid battery assembly or battery ECU. This should always be accompanied by an additional code P3011 through P3024.

    P3011 typically means block 1 is the culprit (usually decodes to "block 1 becomes weak") but it could also be the ecu
    P3024 is block 14 (or ecu)

    So your original codes were P0A80 which decodes to "replace hybrid battery" and P3013 which is saying block 3 is weak. It s trying to tell you that either module 5 or 6 is failing. The second code you had for P3014 is odd, as there was no P0A80. Strange things happen tho. Maybe the prolong charge cycles smoked module 7 or 8. It's not unheard of to have multiple module failures. Sometimes a very weak module will just die during the cycling process. It's easy to see when I do modules individually, as I can track and document every capacity reading for every module. Using a system like the prolong does not provide any data for individual modules, so you have no way of identifying ones that are weak.

    But, as I mentioned previously, every battery I've worked on that has already gone down the P0A80 path, has always had at least one module that was not recoverable. The prolong is not a miracle worker. If the module was bad, it's bad. It will have to be replaced. After you have 28 functional modules, the prolong will probably do its job just fine.
     
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  9. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    I agree with TMR-JWAP, once you get P0A80, you will have to replace at least 1 module. Trying to recover the pack by just charging and balancing is just a big waste of time and energy.

    Working on the pack level, you can easily identify the bad modules by doing a full charge and let the pack self discharge for a week. All the good modules should have similar discharge characteristics. The bad ones will discharge at a much faster rate.
     
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  10. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    Where is a good source for buying the needed modules and how do I get a match for the capacity and voltage?

    Thanks for the information. The reason I was going to try a dealer was in the hopes I could convince them to give me a break on the replacement battery. I am retired and living on fixed income. Figuring in the typical full cost of a battery the cost of operation on the Prius will be very close to the cost of operating my previous car which only got about 23 mpg. Not quite the outcome I envisioned when I purchased the used car from a Toyota dealership with 66,000 on the clock.

    Overall cost of ownership will be far above expectations unless there is some sort of loyalty incentive. With a new battery, at the right price, it could well be my last car purchased.
     
  11. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    PM (Start a Conversation) with JC91006 or EricBecky to see if they have any modules that match your other ones. Eric is always happy to take calls and you can discuss with him the best way to match modules.
     
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  12. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    Thank you. Nice to have a recommendation.
     
  13. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    I appreciate all the help from everyone. I tried to get Toyota to offer some assistance. They said no. I should go to the dealer and try to get help from them. I went to my least favorite dealer and paid for a diagnostic which Toyota said was required before they would make any decision. Dealer did diagnostics for less than $60. Remarkably they determined that the hybrid battery needs to be replaced. Oh, and one tail light is out.

    After getting the official diagnostic, I called Toyota again and tried to see what they would do. The response was that the car was too old to warrant their offering any assistance. Since the car is a 2007 with 136,000 miles in good condition it is only listed in KBB as being worth a little over $4,000 assuming I had the battery repaired. I can buy a battery from dealer for $2588.67. I can get a 15% percent through Costco that brings the battery down to $2200. With Texas sales tax comes to $2376.

    In the DFW due to air quality problems, there is a program where I can let the state crush the car and receive $3500 towards the purchase of a 2014-2018 hybrid. That is the route I will probably go. Seems a shame to crush a car with only 138,000. I have calculated the depreciation on the Prius. With the battery failure factored in for the miles driven, my previous full sized American car cost about the same to operate when depreciation is included. I drove it till 170,000 miles. The full size car was much more comfortable and quieter.

    I am seriously considering switching to Honda for my next hybrid. My grandson has had excellent experience with his Honda Element. Of course he has no idea what his fuel consumption is.

    I realize I could change out the 2 bad modules in the battery and balance it with the grid charger. Just seems too much like a temporary fix with a pretty significant time investment.

    I will post my final decision soon.
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    honda's hybrid track record is sketchy. i would go back to a gasser if money is your only motivation.
     
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  15. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    bisco,

    I think it is the knee jerk reaction to the thought of crushing a car with only 136,000 miles. Leaves a real bitter taste in my mouth. The unfortunate part is the car is in pretty good condition. No wrecks. Oil always changed with Mobil one with extended life filters. All I have done to the car other than routing maintenance is an O2 sensor and replaced all the coil packs, plugs and nothing else stands out. I have almost worn out my Michelin tires. Still have some tread left before hitting the wear bars. Overall not too bad from the reliability standpoint. But the hybrid battery is just over the top.
     
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  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    are you sure? $2,600. and you're back on the road for another ten years doesn't seem that outrageous.
     
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  17. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    It still means I have $3500 + $2600 in the car. That is $6100 in a car with a market value of $4000. Seems upside down to me. Looking to see if there are any deal on used. My window of opportunity for crushing the car will close ar the end of the year. It is tied to income and this year, I have very little, which is good for this situation.

    If I put the $6100 towards a newer car, I have a reliable battery and hopefully less repair cost down the road. I can buy a 2014 low mileage car for around $13,000-14,000.
     
  18. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    A couple of comments on this.

    When you are dealing with old cars "market value" is pretty irrelevant, except to an accountant/rationalisation type mentality. The time for using that rationalisation is before you bought this car, The way you need to look at it now is, how many miles will a further $2070 put into this car get me, and amortise that lump sum over those miles.

    I think your math is wrong, you don't have $6100 to invest in a new car, by your figures you have $3,500, and I would say you don't even have that. your car's value in it's current state is probably no more than $1000. (You need to accept you have already lost (or over paid, if you like) $1600.) I think if you change your paradigm, you can rationally get this car going and have a reasonably good car for the next 5 years.

    Do not be tempted to allow your emotions and bad initial decision to lead you down the re-manned battery route, in all likelihood it will bite you in the bum and just add to your anguish and frustration. You will become to hate this car, if you don't already. You need to do all you can to get a Toyota New battery in this car for as cheaply as possible, or cut your losses and take the crushing option.

    Lastly, if you can afford a $13,000 - $14,000 car, why are you mucking around with a beater?
     
  19. MartinGale

    MartinGale Junior Member

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    My math is not erroneous. The state will pay me $3500 to take the 2007 off the road. To keep the 2007 will require the new battery at $2600. It will,also need a new set of tires which will run $4-500. Those are all real expenses associated with keeping that car. The price of the new Toyota battery is a discounted price with self install. Also, my car is 10 years old but it is far from being a beater. The good condition of my car is why I hate to see it crushed. If I put more money into the car than market value and it gets stolen or wrecked, the bean counting insurance company will pay book value and not one cent more.

    Market value tells me that if I do put the new battery in, it is unlikely to offer me good return on the investment. The value through KBB is pretty close to what I am observing in dealer and CraigsList ads.

    Do not confuse low income with lack of financial resources. I can afford a new plug in Prius or a Tesla for that matter. I prefer to purchase cars where someone else has eatten the initial depreciation. All cars suffer significant depreciation as soon as they roll off the showroom floor.

    If I keep the 2007 for another 5 years the depreciation will accelerate. In all likelyhood repair expenses will increase as well. It will depreciate at a higher now that it has exceeded 10 year age.

    If I use the opportunity to get rid of this car for a value that is $1,000 less than current market value, it subsidizes the cost of the newer car. The money for a new hybrid battery and tires are hard foreseeable expenses that I have the option of diverting for a different, newer car. If I buy a 2014 or 2015, I pay $9,500 out of pocket for a newer model. That plus the $2600 battery and $4-500 tires expenses effectively reduce the purchase price by diverting the ill spent money to the replacement car. The cars in the price range I am looking at have less than 30.000 miles and offer a better, more reliable hybrid battery.

    I have not decided for sure what I will do. My understanding of finance, ecconomics and failure prediction due to ageing mechanics are things that I understand very well. I manage my personal finances just as I managed business finances. I make judgements based on math not gut feelings. I mentioned earlier that I was considering a Honda Element. That was more of a shot at Toyota and their lopsided warranty where CARB states operate under a different warranty from the rest of the country.

    I appreciate your spin on the situation.
     
  20. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Fair enough, but if I could put one last thing forward.

    If you should find yourself in the situation where you installed a new battery in your car and it is written off. you can negotiate to remove the battery and sell off separately, you should realise a significant portion of the original list price, depending on age. The value of the settlement will not change whether the battery is present or not.

    Good luck with your decision and all the best.
     
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