Gore tells Pres. Bush he needs to goto war.

Tempus · Jun 14, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jun 14 2007, 11:13 AM) [snapback]461547[/snapback]</div>

In 2005, Indonesia ran a trade surplus with export revenues of US$83.64 billion and import expenditure of US$62.02 billion. It's the most populous Muslim country in the world. How many wars has it started lately?
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Not the best example.

Indonesia is in the middle of several low-grade civil (religious) wars with lots of atrocities to go around.

Timor, Aceh, Irian Jaya, Borneo, Java, Sumatra.....

dbermanmd · Jun 14, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Jun 14 2007, 10:54 AM) [snapback]461528[/snapback]</div>

I don't think the question you ask is of much value and tried to point that out with a rhetorical question. But I see this is not a debate as you already have made your mind up.

The problem, as I see it, is not religion but prosperity. Give people a chance of prosperity and the interest in violent doom goes down. I don't think we stand a chance modernizing Islam with out prosperity/stability. How we create that in the middle east is beyond me. But blaming the problem on Islam seem a backwards way to go at it.

So I'm not willing to blame "muslims" for the problems we are facing as that to me is missing the point.
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how do you spread prosperity to Muslims - when 51% of them are not allowed to read or write or are treated like cattle? When the religion controls all the laws, the press, the political process?

still waiting for an answer - you may find the answer to your point here.

How do you modernize Islam - hint - separate it from State - how do you do that??

MickeyA · Jun 14, 2007

05_SilverPri @ Jun 14 2007 said: ↑

461540[/snapback]</div>

So if prosperity diminishes the interest in violent doom, how come Osama Bin Laden, worth hundreds of millions in oil money, is so hell bent on destroying western civilization? Where is his interest in violent doom rooted? Maybe in a society that hasn't advanced beyond the 12th century, in part, because the dominant religion doesn't want to.
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But if he had tried to spread his wealth to the ppl instead of demoninzing the nonMuslims, I'd bet the outcome would be different.

My thought has always been what happens when you throw money] the ppl.
Would the US have been better giving $400B (& counting) to the middle easterners to make this all go away?
Obviously, 'teaching them to fish' hasn't had a positive effect.
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scargi01 · Jun 14, 2007

MickeyA @ Jun 14 2007 said: ↑

461616[/snapback]</div>

But if he had tried to spread his wealth to the ppl instead of demoninzing the nonMuslims, I'd bet the outcome would be different.

My thought has always been what happens when you throw money] the ppl.
Would the US have been better giving $400B (& counting) to the middle easterners to make this all go away?
Obviously, 'teaching them to fish' hasn't had a positive effect.
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I understand the idea that improved economic position normally reduces the desire to rebel against a "society", but it seems in the current situation with Muslims it isn't working that way. I don't have time right now to research the source so I can refer to it here, but I remember reading that the subway bombers in London (Muslim) were not poor, economically disadvantaged people. In fact, in the polls done of the Muslim population in Europe, there is significant support for terrorism (10-20%) as a strategy among ALL Muslims, regardless of economic position. There are about 5 million Muslims in Europe, and 10-20% is 500k to 1 million people there that think terrorism is a legitimate way to accomplish goals. Would a comparable number of other religions say the same thing? I donâ€™t know, but I certainly donâ€™t see many news reports of non-Muslims bombing and burning and killing, just because they donâ€™t like some cartoons printed in a newspaper.
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MegansPrius · Jun 14, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Jun 14 2007, 01:02 PM) [snapback]461742[/snapback]</div>

I understand the idea that improved economic position normally reduces the desire to rebel against a "society", but it seems in the current situation with Muslims it isn't working that way. I don't have time right now to research the source so I can refer to it here, but I remember reading that the subway bombers in London (Muslim) were not poor, economically disadvantaged people. In fact, in the polls done of the Muslim population in Europe, there is significant support for terrorism (10-20%) as a strategy among ALL Muslims, regardless of economic position. There are about 5 million Muslims in Europe, and 10-20% is 500k to 1 million people there that think terrorism is a legitimate way to accomplish goals. Would a comparable number of other religions say the same thing? I donâ€™t know, but I certainly donâ€™t see many news reports of non-Muslims bombing and burning and killing, just because they donâ€™t like some cartoons printed in a newspaper.
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I also recall that report. The London bombers were middle class, but young. On the other hand, Rwanda is primarliy Catholic and Protestant.

micksimon · Jun 14, 2007

dbermanmd @ Jun 14 2007 said: ↑

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how do you spread prosperity to Muslims - when 51% of them are not allowed to read or write or are treated like cattle? When the religion controls all the laws, the press, the political process?

still waiting for an answer - you may find the answer to your point here.

How do you modernize Islam - hint - separate it from State - how do you do that??
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How do you spread prosperity to Muslims- when 51% of them are not allowed to read or write or are treated like cattle?

Education. Give me an example of Muslim girls not being able to get an education today. You seem to be projecting the beliefs of the radical elements of Islam onto the general populace. Girls are being taught in schools throughout the Muslim world. The Taliban and its ilk prohibited girls from attending schools. Islam does not.

Islam is not the enemy - radical Islam rooted in poverty is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MickeyA @ Jun 14 2007, 12:05 PM) [snapback]461616[/snapback]</div>

But if he had tried to spread his wealth to the ppl instead of demoninzing the nonMuslims, I'd bet the outcome would be different.

My thought has always been what happens when you throw money] the ppl.
Would the US have been better giving $400B (& counting) to the middle easterners to make this all go away?
Obviously, 'teaching them to fish' hasn't had a positive effect.
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You don't throw money at people. You educate them and give them a chance to make a living. Handing them 400B is not teaching them to fish.

If you need an example, you only need to look as far as the people you're directing this 400B at. The Saudis have been building madrassas one after another after another in every little village throughout Central Asia with the goal of delivering Wahhabism to the masses of children. Result? A generation of kids who hate the West.

Fight fire with fire.
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MickeyA · Jun 14, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mick @ Jun 14 2007, 04:28 PM) [snapback]461830[/snapback]</div>

You don't throw money at people. You educate them and give them a chance to make a living. Handing them 400B is not teaching them to fish.

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I didn't say teaching them to fish = $400B handouts.
I said why not give the ppl $400B instead of the current course: Nation building ie teaching them to fish.

Isn't that what we are trying in Iraq?
It's cost us $400B so far & is it working?

You can say the religious zealots prey on the uneducated & impoverished over there.
Well, what if we've gave all of those ppl $400B to fill their empty pockets.
They are able to put the roof over their heads. Feed their family. Buy medicine. Goto school.
Cash talks louder than allah when it can provide.

Even the poor & stupid know that.

Do you think they would listen to the local cleric's rhetoric then?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(05_SilverPri @ Jun 14 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]461742[/snapback]</div>

I understand the idea that improved economic position normally reduces the desire to rebel against a "society", but it seems in the current situation with Muslims it isn't working that way. I don't have time right now to research the source so I can refer to it here, but I remember reading that the subway bombers in London (Muslim) were not poor, economically disadvantaged people. In fact, in the polls done of the Muslim population in Europe, there is significant support for terrorism (10-20%) as a strategy among ALL Muslims, regardless of economic position. There are about 5 million Muslims in Europe, and 10-20% is 500k to 1 million people there that think terrorism is a legitimate way to accomplish goals. Would a comparable number of other religions say the same thing? I don’t know, but I certainly don’t see many news reports of non-Muslims bombing and burning and killing, just because they don’t like some cartoons printed in a newspaper.
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I've seen reports to those #'s also.
I am going to say that if that many Muslims do believe that, then they are totally against the Quran.
The question is: how many will actually do it themselves.

Talk the talk, but walk the walk? or do they get somebody's kid to carry a backpack onto the bus for them.

& if I gave that kid $1m be4 they can get to him & gave him WII's & candy. How many kids wouldn't leave that backpack alone.

I am making it too simplistic, I know. But face with death or life full of wealth & able to support all of your needs & wants? Most ppl choose the latter.

micksimon · Jun 14, 2007

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MickeyA @ Jun 14 2007, 06:32 PM) [snapback]461903[/snapback]</div>

I didn't say teaching them to fish = $400B handouts.
I said why not give the ppl $400B instead of the current course: Nation building ie teaching them to fish.

Isn't that what we are trying in Iraq?
It's cost us $400B so far & is it working?

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In the immortal words of the Church Lady, "Never mind!" Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I agree with your concept. 400B would have done a lot more good had it been invested in schools, health care, irrigation, etc.

Gore tells Pres. Bush he needs to goto war.

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Gore tells Pres. Bush he needs to goto war.

Tempus Senior Member

dbermanmd New Member

MickeyA New Member

scargi01 Active Member

MegansPrius GoogleMeister, AKA bongokitty

micksimon New Member

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micksimon New Member