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got some young 2012 modules

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by scotman27, Apr 10, 2014.

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  1. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    I may not get this pack in today. i still got some things I gotta take care of here at the house while my folks are gone. im finishing up the yard, and then i gotta drag the patio furniture out back. i dont know how long it will be but i have to get it done before 8 tonight as ill need my car for a 9:30 hockey game.
     
    #261 scotman27, May 7, 2014
  2. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    ill keep you posted. i think an average of 6.25 ahr is pretty darn good. now does the prius average that out, lets say all my modules are at least 6300 mah and I got one thats 6000mah, will that reduce the pack capacity to 6000 like the honda insight or does the prius average it. example; 19 pairs of modules at 6300, but one pair has a module thats 6300 and 6000mah. so that one pair is 6150mah. its in series but does it being in series make the pack a 6000 mah pack because thats the lowest module

    if you know what Im saying?
     
    #262 scotman27, May 7, 2014
  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Yes. :) So here's the thing. Suppose you've got this module pair and they're fully charged (6000 usable mAh in one, 6300 in the other). Now you start drawing current out, and you like this average idea, so you drain out 6150 mAh. Now one of the modules is fine (it's even got 150 mAh left), but the other one ... hmm, that one crossed the point of full discharge 150 mAh ago, then had about 3.4×10^21 more electrons shoved through it just because it happened to be in the way of the stronger one ... which I think makes it even weaker, so the imbalance gets worse every time.

    -Chap
     
    #263 ChapmanF, May 7, 2014
  4. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Thats what I'm worried about. I didn't get my pack in today. So maybe until next Wednesday ill cycle the others that are not at least 6200 mah. I most definitely don't want to destroy a module because I didn't take the time to cycle appropriately

    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
    #264 scotman27, May 7, 2014
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    These are two different things.
    1. SOC: 100% to 0% -> gives the Ahr capacity . . . this is NOT a normal Prius operation
    2. SOC: 80% to 40% -> Prius operating range centered around 60%
    The Prius does not push the modules to the limit like we do to measure their capacity. It is pushing to the limits that stresses them. In contrast, the Prius treats the modules much more gently than we do when measuring their capacity. Here is a brief listing of normal traction battery, operating states:
    • cold-start ICE - the traction battery briefly, supplies ~2 seconds of spin before the ignition and fuel injection starts. This brings the oil pressure up without mechanical stress of combustion. This a minor blip in the SOC.
    • warm-start ICE - it takes a little less than .250 sec to restart the ICE from a standing start. It may be even faster but I have not put in instrumentation with finer resolution. Again, a minor blip because a warm engine already has hot-oil so power comes on nearly instantly while at the same time, MG2 is moving the car out.
    • regeneration braking - stressful because charging NiMH is exothermic (generates heat,) the only time it is significant is descending a tall hill, hundreds of feet and at high speed, often. In such cases, shifting into "B" helps keep the traction battery cooler (use an OBD scanner and monitor the traction battery temperature to see the effect.)
    • transition between normal and heretical modes - at low speeds, 28% of the power flows from MG1 to MG2, around the power split device (PSD). Above about 25-30 mph, 28% of the power flows reverses from MG2 to MG1 to effectively provide more torque against the engine and improve its efficiency. It is so well done, it is impossible to detect it except using a Prius aware OBD scanner. It is so brief, less than 300 ms., yet critical to Prius efficiency at higher speeds.
    • pedal-to-the-metal - when the engine reaches maximum power, the traction battery provides additional power and draws down the SOC. Later, this has to be replaced by charging the traction battery, generating heat. This can be mitigated by keeping the ICE rpm under 3,900-4,100 rpm but even better keeping it at or under 2,400 rpm.
    When you pull out the old modules and hopefully test them, you'll see the range that exists in an operating pack. These modules are pretty well matched. You did good in this purchase.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #265 bwilson4web, May 8, 2014
  6. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    Yes scotman, pay close attention to what Bob said above. Chapman was telling you the possibility from a 100%-0% discharge. The Prius will never do this and all your modules are close enough in capacity to never see any problem like he explained. You can do what you want with your modules/pack but, you can spend a ton of time trying to get them perfect.
     
    #266 usnavystgc, May 8, 2014
  7. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    I see what both of you are saying and I forgot about the prius not discharging/charging completely. my fault. Well with things being hectic around the house yesterday i couldnt get the pack in my car so i have to wait until next wednesday,:( . but on a positive, i might as well cycle the ones that are in the 6000mah range and possibly a couple more that are in the 6100 mah range but my main focus will be on the ones that are in the 6000 mah range and on tuesday evening ill get the pack ready to be installed.

    when thats all said and done, ill post the final capacity numbers, Bob, one more help with the pairing would be awesome when this is done. im sorry that you went through that three times before with me. i know im a pain. my apologies
     
    #267 scotman27, May 8, 2014
  8. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    ok so far my numbers are looking good. I got 4 going right now and then 1 more to go. I would of been done but the other day i went to vacuum my car out and the stupid GFCI outlet in my garage tripped for some reason and I lost a days worth of data on 4 modules. That stupid outlet, im ready to take that thing out of the wall. it been a pain since I put it in there. So im hoping I can figure some thing out to cycle that last one thats at 6135 mah. ill keep you posted.
     
    #268 scotman27, May 13, 2014
  9. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    If I don't cycle that one module, that will be the one out of the whole pack with the lowest capacity. I think the next lowest capacity is 6225. highest capacity is 6509. all the rest are 6300to 6490. Will that one being at 6135mah hurt the rest of the pack? I'm afraid of heat buildup.

    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
    #269 scotman27, May 13, 2014
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    You have nothing to worry about as even your worst module is better than many I've seen that were perfectly functional. Just match the strong and weak and then put the strongest pairs in the middle and you'll be good to go.

    Sorry, but I didn't save my spreadsheet but with the quality of modules you have, you'll be in great shape.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #270 bwilson4web, May 13, 2014
  11. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Thanks bob, ill post my numbers when they get done, I think they will be done tomorrow early morning... I think

    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
    #271 scotman27, May 13, 2014
  12. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    I think by the time this is all said and done, you just might have the best Gen 1 pack ever assembled. :)
     
    #272 usnavystgc, May 13, 2014
  13. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    This is a gen 1 pack but not gen 1 modules, I can tell you, I'm excited to get this thing in the car to see how it performs. but $1350 its Alot if money for me, so that's why ive been so anal and picky when it comes to cycling these and getting the capacities close

    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
    #273 scotman27, May 13, 2014
  14. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Ok after cycling the lowest ones the only one that I couldnt get done (thanks to my GFCI outlet in the garage tripping out) was module 7 so that one sits at 6135mah, but based on how the others have responded by coming up to above 6400mah i believe that one would do the same. I do not consider module 7 weak. I am going to place the pack in parallel now while I prepare to remove my old pack, If you feel that module 7 is going to hurt my pack because I did not cycle it, let me know so I can cycle it and ill wait till im off sunday evening (got things to do during the day) to swap batteries.
    how long should I leave the pack in parallel. im thinking 2 hrs.
    So here are the numbers.


    Module 1: D2:6376
    Module 2: D2:6417
    Module 3: D2:6491
    Module 4: D2:6431
    Module 5: D2:6491
    Module 6: D2:6227
    Module 7: D2:6135
    Module 8: D2:6436
    Module 9: D2:6344
    Module 10: D2:6414
    Module 11: D2:6453
    Module 12: D2:6373
    Module 13: D2:6358
    Module 14: D2:6496
    Module 15: D2:6398
    Module 16: D2:6299
    Module 17: D2:6422
    Module 18: D2:6411
    Module 19: D2:6238
    Module 20: D2:6483
    Module 21: D2:6407
    Module 22: D2:6479
    Module 23: D2:6405
    Module 24: D2:6495
    Module 25: D2:6282
    Module 26: D2:6422
    Module 27: D2:6416
    Module 28: D2:6509
    Module 29: D2:6274
    Module 30: D2:6203
    Module 31: D2:6481
    Module 32: D2:6359
    Module 33: D2:6326
    Module 34: D2:6408
    Module 35: D2:6346
    Module 36: D2:6207
    Module 37: D2:6248
    Module 38: D2:6336

    Now they just gotta be paired and placed.
     
    #274 scotman27, May 14, 2014
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  15. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    well i had my old pack out of the car and was starting to tear it down when my buddy called me about going out on a job with him to make some money. so back in it went and ill have to wait till sunday/monday. but on the upside. i made some money.
     
    #275 scotman27, May 14, 2014
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  16. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    the other upside, at least i can cycle the modules with the lowest capacity.
     
    #276 scotman27, May 16, 2014
  17. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Just out of curiosity, is there anywhere I can buy the copper bus bars.for the hybrid battery. And possibly the orange plastic? It would be nice to get that stuff so everything would be new. Look pretty too :D

    If I can get that stuff, I can put it on later.

    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
    #277 scotman27, May 16, 2014
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If you look through this forum for a copy of instructions for the "special service campaign 40G" about re-sealing the module terminals, there's a part number 04003-35147 shown on page 6 for a "replacement parts kit" - all the little parts you would want to replace with new in doing that job. All the stuff you're asking about is in there. Brand shiny new, about $108 at the online dealers.

    -Chap

    edit: ... now, those are still plain copper busbars as far as I know. If you really want to trick this thing out, you might try to contact the Dorman-subsidiary-formerly-known-as-ReInvolt and see if you can buy their nickel-plated ones. (Or I guess you could buy the Toyota ones and take them to a nearby electroplater for the nickel layer. There's a plating firm right near me and for whatever reason I don't think I've ever walked in and asked them if they do random small jobs, or what they charge. I'd be curious to know.)
     
    #278 ChapmanF, May 16, 2014
  19. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    ok, all modules cycled, numbers are awesome.

    here are the numbers,


    Module 1: 6376
    Module 2: 6417
    Module 3: 6491
    Module 4: 6431
    Module 5: 6491
    Module 6: 6488
    Module 7: 6382
    Module 8: 6436
    Module 9: 6531
    Module 10: 6414
    Module 11: 6453
    Module 12: 6373
    Module 13: 6482
    Module 14: 6496
    Module 15: 6398
    Module 16: 6485
    Module 17: 6422
    Module 18: 6411
    Module 19: 6396
    Module 20: 6483
    Module 21: 6407
    Module 22: 6479
    Module 23: 6405
    Module 24: 6495
    Module 25: 6464
    Module 26: 6422
    Module 27: 6416
    Module 28: 6509
    Module 29: 6463
    Module 30: 6495
    Module 31: 6481
    Module 32: 6491
    Module 33: 6452
    Module 34: 6408
    Module 35: 6562
    Module 36: 6444
    Module 37: 6492
    Module 38: 6499

    Im pairing them as follows, came up with a 34mah difference between both halves of the pack. not bad at all, the slash mark is where i believe the prius pack gets split in half when removing the orange safety but those are modules 35-12

    7-28,19-38,34-37,18-32,10-3,1-9,26-16,11-29,8-31,35/12,22-36,25-33,13-4,5-27,6-2,20-17,24-21,30-23,14-15
     
    #279 scotman27, May 19, 2014
  20. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    ok battery is installed, what a difference. car has more power so it seems. im right now on a 16 mile trip averaging 57.2, where i usually averaged 48. so we shall see what happens. i know that it seems to go in ev mode alot more and stay in it alot longer. so ill see what transpires over the next few days to a week. scangauge high and low voltages are hovering either dead even or around .1 to ,2 v difference.
     
    #280 scotman27, May 19, 2014
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