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got some young 2012 modules

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by scotman27, Apr 10, 2014.

  1. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    That must be so satisfying having it turn out so well. A definite reward for your meticulous patience.

    Good job! :)
     
  2. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    yeah, you got that right. i was sweating bullets and praying this would turn out good.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I hope you'll be able to survey the old modules

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    you read my mind, that was going to be my next question. what should I do with the old modules, cycle those on the same settings to see what I have there, or leave it be and put up a listing here for someone who may be financially strapped but they need their car.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Let me suggest you have:
    • a good, multi-channel, charger
    • knowledge of how to use it
    • resources for a parallel charge
    My thinking is survey the modules and hopefully share so you can compare and contrast the old and new modules. I am curious about how bad your old modules were. Then you can sell the unit, all modules balance charged, and the buyer is going in with 'eyes open.'

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    that is what I was hoping you would say ;). Unfortunately I got to wait until I get another charger, for some reason it crapped out on me. Thank god for warranties. Plus I got to get my dads insight sticks done as well. So it may be a little bit until i get to it.

    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
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  7. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    well its been a little bit but im happy to report that i am averaging 49 mpg, it used to be 42-45mpg. voltages under full load going in reverse up a hill are .2 to.4 volts. while driving they are about .1 to .2 volts. it stays in ev mode much longer and the rpms dont seem to get up too high like they used to.
     
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  8. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Ok a little thread revival. I finally got around to start cycling my old pack. My dads insight battery is done and is working very well. it made an incredible difference on his car. anyways my old pack. I cannot get this thing to take 7250 mah per module. they keep peaking out between 2000 and 3300 mah. so this is really throwing my numbers off. Im only on the first 3 modules have ran about 6 cycles on them only coming back with about 500 mah out of it and i think thats because of the peaking. is there any way around this?
     
  9. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Although off-topic with regards to Prius I am interested to know what you did to your father's Insight battery.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Yes but you won't like it. The problem is old modules lose their water. Although we can add water the problem then becomes sealing up the hole. That defeated me but I have another approach I want to try someday.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    But wasn't this pack working fine in your car just prior to this (like less than a month ago)?
     
  12. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    to Patrick:
    what I did with my fathers insight battery is I cycled each stick anywhere from 4 to 6 times using a high-tech x4 AC plus charger. I used the same technique on his sticks as I used on my newer 2012 modules.
    which is in this current thread.

    to Bob Wilson:
    hmmm... what is this approach you speak of? and is there anything I could do at this point to get more accurate numbers? I am charging at .5 amps and discharging down to 6 volts at 1 amp discharge.

    to usnavystgc:
    I am a little lost. I replaced my original pack in my car with 2012 modules. I had to rebalance the 2012 pack before I put them in and check capacity to pair the pack up. I put the 2012 battery in and set my old original pack off to the side. in the meantime I had to cycle my dad's Insight battery because his threw codes. that is now completed and I'm beginning to cycle my original 2001 pack.
    the 2012 models are doing just fine and voltages are between .1 to .2v of each other.



    Samsung galaxy precedent
     
  13. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    But just so I can be absolutely clear in my understanding, wasn't the pack that your currently cycling installed and working in your car with no DTC's prior to replacing it with the 2012 modules?
     
  14. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Yes , but that was the original pack from 2001. Yes, it was working, however, it coded out on me back in September and I had to replace 3 modules, Bob wilson set me up with those. My intent was to patch it until I could get the finances to get gen 3 modules over summer, prefferrably new ones and replace my original pack so I would not have to worry about it. I ran into a stellar deal on ebay for 2012 modules out of 2 prius that were wrecked. I ordered them then cycled them for capacity and they came up all but brand new. I was going to cycle my old pack right away but my dad's insight coded out on him so I cycled his. now that that is done, I can start cycling my old modules to check capacity to see if they are worth selling to someone who is in need of a pack but doesnt have the finances
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Those are accurate numbers for worn out modules. Let me explain how they 'wear out' and how they can be recovered.

    During normal operation, a little bit of the water separates into a small amount of hydrogen and oxygen. Normally this is not a problem because the cell will 'recombine' these gasses back into water. But in a worn out module, some of the gas, typically the hydrogen, leaks out the terminal seal. This is especially true if the module run hot from repeated charge and discharge cycles. The greater the cycle swing, the greater the heat and the weaker the terminal seals become.

    Look closely at the middle pack modules and see if there is a black, smear around some of the terminals. That is the partially failed or failing "O" ring that normally keeps the hydrogen and oxygen gas inside the module.

    The water is part of the electrolyte that carries the current through a plastic mesh that separates the positive and negative electrodes. But as the water disappears by electrolysis and gas escaping, the electrolyte begins to dry out. This forces the current to pass through a smaller area of the plastic separator which gets hot from the resistance heating. When it gets hot enough, the separator melts and shorts that module. But before that happens, less and less of the electrodes are in contact with 'wet' electrolyte. This reduces the module capacity, what you are seeing.

    Years ago, I took some marginal modules and replicated an experimental technique to add water. Then using multiple charge-discharge cycles, I got the modules back to 'like new' capacity. But now I had the holes used to inject the water and closing them turned out to be where I stopped.

    There is a Toyota/Panasonic patent that describes using "plastic welding". Tried and failed to get the holes closed using either heat or epoxy glues. Great modules but without being sealed, they soon dried out again.

    Since then, I've got a new idea that involves drilling out the 'safety' valve and coupling two modules using plastic hose and hose clamps. The drilled out vent is used to add water and the hoses clamped to the nipples should make an air/water tight seal. Just I haven't done the experiment, yet.

    Bob Wilson
     
  16. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    Thats a good idea bob. the only issue is, do you know how the vent is piped inside the module to each individual cell? (I know you had cut one of these apart.) also How would we know how much water to add?
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    When I cut off the top, I isolated the valve. I don't have the dimensions handy but it looks to be about 1/2".

    As for adding water, the Toyota/Panasonic patent mentions using weight. In my case, I laid them on the side and waited until water dripped out. There is an 'air space' between each cell and the water flows easily across the tops. Just don't overfill.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. scotman27

    scotman27 Active Member

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    As I go along here on my old pack, ill post the numbers, ill set the good ones off to the side and maybe we can experiment with the not so good ones.
     
  19. robert mencl

    robert mencl Member

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    I'm not so sure about "filing a claim with Ebay" for being "scammed".
    Used batteries are sold on Ebay, usually listing voltage.
    If the item description did not list the internal resistance, a buyer has no grounds to make resistance a condition of the sale after the fact.
    Please be fair to the seller and to Ebay by limiting frivolous complaints.
    When I buy Prius battery parts online, I am paying a deeply discounted price. I buy a few extras and have some to discard or experiment with. I do not expect the quality control I get when buying direct from Toytota, but I save a loooot of money.
    Best way to avoid being scammed is to maintain a 75 foot buffer zone between yourself and Toyota service managers.
     
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