Hate Sermons from the Pulpit

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jul 9 2007, 12:52 PM) [snapback]475609[/snapback]</div>

More like 'My God is the only God and you have to believe in him that same way I do and worship him the same way I do and if you don't you're a blasphemer, heretic, athiest (liberal) and your god is a false god and you're a stupid poopy-head. And it's still Clinton's fault.' (Oh, and you're going to burn in hell.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jul 9 2007, 12:52 PM) [snapback]475609[/snapback]</div>

I can't agree more. I have yet to attend a church or hear of a church that is actively seeking to do good in the community as it PRIMARY mission. Yes, lots of churches do missions, do a trip once a year to a 3rd world country to build a church or pass out medical supplies. They may have a soup kitchen or shelter for homeless and battered women. However, all of these are secondary to the primary mission and make up 5% to 10% of the yearly budget. The vast majority of the budget goes to maintaining the "club". Yes, that is what most churches are, a club were people get together to socialize. The majority of time, effort, and money goes into maintaining the clubhouse, paying the staff, and recruiting new members so you can build a bigger and better clubhouse with bigger flat-screens, better gym, and wireless mikes instead of corded mikes, etc.

What happened to the primary mission of the church from the book of acts to care for the poor and widows? I don't recall a single passage in the New Testament were we are told to go out and build the biggest and baddest church building as to honor Jesus. In the Bible the church is the people not a building. Today we have that backwards.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MarinJohn @ Jul 9 2007, 12:52 PM) [snapback]475609[/snapback]</div>

I post that as a tick in the ear of those who might read his made up god and think that's how it is. He preaches a false Christ and I'm sure his Jesus wouldn't mind him doing that. In the universe of the real Jesus, we call out the false preachers when we see them. I doubt either of you care if he's legit or a crackpot, so it's not targeted at you two, but more for the casual readers who might not be wise to him and should be warned.

 

Look all around you
A man is about to drown
A woman is crying, "help me!"
A child is falling down.

Are we completely blind...?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 02:29 PM) [snapback]475640[/snapback]</div>

Daron, (if that is your name), why must you be filled with such hatred? Why is it so hard to believe in Christ as one who not only forgives, but loves as well? If that is, as you put it, 'a false Christ', then tell me, what is the 'real' Christ?

In your view, is Christ one who does hate? Is 'your' Christ one who teaches that? Why am I a 'false preacher'? What makes what I say, in your view, false? Where have I said anything false? Unless you think it's false when I say that Christ loves, forgives, taught on getting along with each other...

Why should the casual reader be warned about me? Where did I offer anyone salvation for a price? Am I that much a threat to you, that you feel the need to warn others? All I have said, and will say again, is that Christ offers love and peace and understanding. At no price to you, the 'casual' reader. Maybe because I don't seek a profit from this, that I preach for free, that I won't accept payment for it, you see that as a problem, since it undermines the very fabric of organized religion...Most churches are, as stated above, private clubs, looking for profit. Where as I, don't seek any of that. In fact, I think that believing in Christ should cost you nothing.

Maybe what you are protesting, is that if enough people started seeing Christ as person who we should emulate, and not fear, that the modern church would dry up, and no more money would be made off it. Is that what you fear?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 9 2007, 03:05 PM) [snapback]475668[/snapback]</div>

Some might be.

Funny you mention drowning...I jumped in the water once, to save a drowning man, and when he offered to pay me, I declined.
So he took his offer of money to me, and gave it the local AA, since the reason he was in the water was because he had fallen in drunk.

That man is now sober, and is helping others with his money.

Sometimes a good deed can reap rewards.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]475670[/snapback]</div>

I have to say, for what it's worth, that TJ's thoughtful and introspective version of Christianity is not only a breath of fresh air, but an all-too-infrequent escape from the miasma of dogma and defensiveness.

I respect very greatly your 'ownership' (if you'll pardon the word) of your spirituality...so much different, and so much more vibrant, than "my Pastor told me that..."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]475670[/snapback]</div>

TJ, I suspect he warns that you are a "false preacher" because you deny the very foundation of his spiritual existence. That foundation is that the bible is perfect, inerrant, and God-inspired. Yes, it was written by men but it is nevertheless perfect and without flaw. All the correct books were selected and all the heresies were excluded. Every time that it was painstakingly copied by hand, from one language to another; not a single mistake was made, not a word changed. It is God's revelation of himself to man. It is PERFECT.

So now he takes this perfect book and uses it to define the one and only way to God and salvation. All that deviate in the slightest are damned to hell, only the few, chosen few will be found worthy. HE is one of the worthy.

For you to say that all the tiny details are meaningless and that we should just "love our neighbor as ourselves" and do our best to get along peacefully is as revolutionary today as it was 2000 years ago when Jesus first said it. If you recall Jesus was also called a "false preacher" and heretic by the Pharisees because he refused to follow all the rules and regulations that they had created to define the "good" from the "bad".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 10:35 AM) [snapback]475595[/snapback]</div>

As a former fundy, and current non-christian, I just wanted to put in here, as an agreement to the above, that we all "see as through a glass, darkly", and that the bible is merely an attempt, by a bunch of men, to put into words their experience with the Divine, and that over many centuries.

The basic core of every religion that I am aware of (the ones that I consider 'valid'), is that you are a child of the Divine, and that what you do matters. This is the Golden Rule, the 'Law and the Prophets', and the Wiccan Rede, and every other decent religion in between.

There are many paths to the Light... pick the one that works best for you.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]475670[/snapback]</div>

Is that loving for you to accuse me of being filled with hatred. You don't know how big my glass is or how much hatred I have or don't have. Am I really filled with hatred, or is it that my glass is just so big, I only have a few drops in the bottom that are hatred. This accusation does not seem to be the loving Christ you preach and follow. Or, are you trying to point out a truth here at the potential cost of a disagreement? That would be novel.

The real Christ has many of the attributes you claim for Him to have. He is the ONLY Son of the ONLY God of the universe who came to earth, died for the sins of man and rose again on the third day and ascended to heaven and will return to judge the earth one day. God offers salvation through our belief in His Son Jesus Christ if we will repent of our sin and turn from our wicked ways. You and I agree on probably all of that although you are quite willing that there may be other gods and other ways to God... am I right on that?

You and I disagree more on the attributes of Christ. I say Christ hates Sin. Christ hates adultry, homosexuality, theft, you all know what sin is. Christ loves people and desires that all will turn from their sin and repent of their wicked ways. From what I gather, your Jesus is cool with these sins and with sinful lifestyles. Jesus would not be in the gay pride parade telling everyone it's cool just how they are. Jesus Christ being fully God would be totally outraged at abortion, yet you're not. The Jesus you preach is not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]475670[/snapback]</div>

I think I covered this above. You made up your Jesus based on something you heard somewhere while adding and taking away the bits and pieces you 'think' should be added or taken away. If I were to tell people about a TJ with a third eye that he can fully see out of... in fact... can see a dime from a mile away with that third eye. So what.. no big deal right... just tacking on what I think you should have. Just one problem... It's fake, made up and totally not true. You really should get a Bible and find out about the real Jesus so you can tell people straight up about Him, you'd probably be effective at it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]475670[/snapback]</div>

The casual reader should be warned about you because you proclaim a made up fake Jesus Christ. The casual reader who might be open to the truth of Christ can easily be confused by what you preach. If their introduction is to a made up Christ that they can bend to be whatever they want him to be, they will likely never find the truth or the true Jesus Christ and therefore never find the gift of salvation that only the Son of God can offer for the sin in their life. A browsing theif or browsing adulterer could easily read your messages of Christ and not realize any need to repent or change their way. They would only buy in to a fake Jesus who approves of their current lifestyle and live on to spend an eternity in hell. That danger zone deserves the same warning that anyone would get when approaching thin ice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 9 2007, 02:13 PM) [snapback]475670[/snapback]</div>

Here is where we can get back to agreement. People should start seeing Jesus Christ and emulating and not fearing Him... Follow and not fear the Jesus Christ who would tell their neighbor in friendship and honesty that his adultry is sin and that if he turns to Jesus Christ, repents and asks for forgiveness, he may have eternal life. If you run over there and tell him that Jesus is love, wanna beer? Do you think that guy will heed to the condemnation that Jesus Christ has for the sin in his life? Not likely at all. Speak the truth in love when you have the opportunity.

When you see a guy who misunderstands the true gospel of Christ, help him, do a bible study with him to help him understand. When you see a guy claiming to be a preacher who is selling a false Christ, have the backbone to call it out. That's what I do with you. I call BS on your made up Christ.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 09:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

From what I recall, he's got rather more than just one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 08:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

So who's the judge of the "true" gospel? Christians have been burning, breaking on the wheel, hanging, antagonizing, and terrorizing each other for centuries over that very issue. You people can't even agree on what a proper baptism is, let alone what the "truth" is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 9 2007, 11:25 PM) [snapback]475932[/snapback]</div>

Last count, 72. All having been read more then once. I can quote the Bible in my sleep. What some don't seem to get, is I have said, (again, many times), that while I think the Bible is flawed, it is fairly accurate for a book that was written by man, over many centuries, in several languages. Especially given how old it is. Does that make it perfect? No. Am I perfect? Hardly. Which will bring me to my next response...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

No, I was not being hateful. I was asking you, given your tone in response, as to why you are full of hatred. You have demonstrated a lack of tolerance towards anyone, Daron, (and still I ask, is that your name?). You have brought about a feeling of hatred by your very words. Sorry, if that does not represent you accurately. I only have the words you have supplied us with to gauge my response. I don't know you at all, Daron. You could be a girl. You could be a little boy, playing with his parents computer. You could be a old man, on his last days, bitter at the world. The internets is filled with mysteries, and you are but one.


I am not perfect, and therefore, don't know.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

Yes, you are correct in that view, IMO. My opinion, clearly agrees with that.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

Yes, I am willing to say that I don't know what works for others; it might not be what works for me. Which is Christ like, since He did not force His views on anyone. There may be indeed, (for others then me), another way to God. I have found the way that works for me, and I for one, wont' actively try to force that on others.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

I say no one knows what Christ thought of sin, since, (oh, and remember, He is God, a fact that gets lost often), no one knows the mind of God, not even Christ.

Confusing to some, I know, but it is what I think is the core of Christ: He was both Man and God, and was able to split His mind to accept that duality. Where as most would go insane. Imagine, if you could, you know the exact time and moment of your death, your entire life. As you got closer to that date, your HUMAN instinct would be to run in fear, yet Christ, GOD, could handle it. Amazing.

I have never said Jesus is 'cool' with sin, but He understands it, and forgives it, with no question. That is what He preached on, and it's lost by 'religious' types, for some reason. It's as if they feel guilty, and need to be punished, when Christ died for our sins. ALL of ALL of OUR SINS. Not yours only since you are 'saved', but all of our sins. How hard is that to understand? Find me the quote, from the Bible, where Christ says, 'Only Christians are saved; the rest shall be burned in hell. I only died for Christians.'

You can't find that, since Christ never once said the word 'Christians'. He simply came to this world, with a message of love, and forgiveness, and never once did He say, that someone would be excluded because of their belief system. For many, MANY, this is the true message of Christ. Why is that such a hard thing for you to grasp?

As to abortion, well, I am opposed to it. I think it's horrible. But, (and here is the rub, Daron), I understand the need for it, since I can't possibly, (nor would I), force my views on anyone else. It's not my body, nor my conscious, that has to deal with it. And if you, Daron, are a man, it's not your body either. I have said, before, that one can't possibly know what it's like to have an abortion, unless you have gone through it. Nor, can one assume everyone that has one, is just doing it for kicks, or to end an unwanted pregnancy.

A pastor friend of mine, his wife had one, to save her life, and to be the mother to her other children. It was a hard choice, but one they made. To save her life, Daron. Are you saying that you would rather a mother die, and no longer be around for her already born children, then abort a child that may have, (and would have), killed her?

Daron, WWJD? Well, He would perform a miracle, I think. But He was not there. And He forgives her, if it is indeed, a sin. Since, (now follow me here; we went over this before), since we know ALL SIN IS FORGIVEN.

All sin is equal to God. And all sin is forgiven by Christ, since He died for our sins. All our sins. Daron.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

Now, Daron, why would you feel it necessary to insult me? Or to try to, at the very least. I did not make up Christ, Jesus, at all. He is here as He was then and is forever. As mentioned, time and time and time and time again, I have read the Bible. I am working on my masters in theology. I have, on more then one occasion, taught on the Bible. You seem to think I have a lack of respect for this book. I don't, but I have learned of it's flaws, and that is okay, if you understand that the core of it (the part where we learn of the existence of Christ, and His ways), is in there. The more you read the Bible, the closer you get to the Truth, and the Truth is God.

I understand your basic need for rules. Many 'Christians' need them as well, and form whole churches around them. They manifest a 'club' like atmosphere, and allow only those with the 'secret' handshake to enter, so to speak. They speak in 'church' which is a language all it's own. That is alright with me; I don't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member.

What I say, and encourage others to do, is to read the Bible, and come to your own conclusion. You might follow that advice, and come to think it's all a bunch of crap, and that is fine. Or you might become curious, and question how is it possible to have God, on the one hand, want to punish us, (by condemning those who don't believe to hell), and on the other hand, love us so much He sent us His one and only Son to die for us all, to rid us of sin.

Or you may do something else. Who knows? But the journey, the journey is worth it. Oh, yes, it is.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

Daron, Daron. Does your pastor, if you have one, does he not teach on the very fact that not all people are the same?

And if he does preach on that, would it not seem to make sense, to you, Daron, that not all people BELIEVE the same way?

To some, Christ is White. To some, he is Black. To some, He is a She. To some, He has long flowing hair, and is dressed in robes. To some He is dressed in jeans and a T-Shirt. To some He is covered in tattoos, smoking a blunt. To some, He is speaking French. To some, He is speaking Russian. To some, He speaks in tongues. To some, He speaks with sign language. To some, He comes to them in dreams.

I cold go on, but others get the point. A person could indeed be confused. Why are there Catholics? Why are there Protestants? Church of England? Why are there Jews? Why are there Muslims? Don't Muslims speak of Allah, as do the Jews in the Old Testament? Who is Yeshua? Why do 'Christians' argue with other 'Christians'?

What's the deal???

The deal is, I don't have the answers to all of the questions, and neither does anyone. I am sure that one's take on Christ is just as different as an others. If you need fire and brimstone to make your life more complete, then super. Have at it. Condemn all to hell that don't agree with you. If that makes you feel as if you are following Christ, then more power to you.


What separates me, from your type, as it were, of 'Christian', is that I don't care.

I don't care about you, or what you think of me. I don't care what others think of me. I don't give a rats nice person.

Why should I? It's not as if what happens to your soul, affects me. To be blunt.

BUT, what I do care about, is how the world gets along. If we all got along in peaceful harmony, then I would have no stress worrying about the End Of The World As We Know It. And then, in what can be described as a selfish attitude, I would be worry free, and be all happy. And since it's all about my happiness, that is what I want.

I want Christ's True Message of Peace, Love, and Understanding, to be heard, and given a shot.

(oh, and I may be a tad sarcastic in that last paragraph. A tad...but not about that last line. That I do want.)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 9 2007, 10:03 PM) [snapback]475889[/snapback]</div>

I am not claiming anything but what I am. I am a Preacher. The one your Pastor warned you about. The one who is not afraid of the church, and what the church thinks of him, because I have no church. I have learned through decades of study, that what the organized religious zealots believe is Christ, is Christ that fits their thinking, and not mine, and that is okay.

I call BS on you, on one hand. I call Basic Stuffiness on you. I say that given your words here, and your public attitudes described in this (and other) threads about God, that you are Basically Stuffy, and are not willing to let others be what they are. You want the world to bend to your view, which is fine and all, but are not willing to let others think Outside The Bible.

And BTW, my Christ is no more made up then yours. It's just I see Him differently then you do.

Cheerio!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 02:27 AM) [snapback]476005[/snapback]</div>

For a guy who doesn't care what I think, you had a lot to say. I feel honored to be the new Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan Alan... the use of the first name over and over has long been known as an attempt to bully a conversation out of a position of insecurity, glad to see you need that with me.

I don't have all day to reply to all of that, so let's hit the areas where I have big problems with your made up Christ.

This is probably your biggest error. While Christ did die for all sin past, present and future, all people are not forgiven of their sin. Let's go to the most famous explaination of who is forgiven of their sin: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Your carte blanche plan for everyone and anyone... who believes in Christ... (or not)... being forgiven of all our sin can very easily be mistaken to include people who refuse to believe in Christ for their salvation. You're leading everyone in that category straight down the happy path to hell (perish as mentioned above).

When a sinner repents of his/her sins against God, God forgives him/her of those sins as he/she accepts the righteousness of Jesus who died to pay the penalty of the sinner's rebellion against God (see Romans 3:19-26 and Romans 5:9-11). Not only does God forgive the sinner for his/her sins, but God also forgets these sins (see Hebrews 10:17), and puts them far away (see Psalms 103:10-11).

I'm sure you have most of those verses blacked out in your version of the bible since people shouldn't be expected to repent or accept the righteousness of Christ to pay the penalty for their sin. The god you made up just forgives everyone without the sinner needing to even recognize his/her sin or turn from it.

I hope this can be my strongest arguement for you being a false preacher. Your admission that people all over the world make up their own version of Jesus does not make it legit. It's just a whole bunch of people besides you making up their own Jesus and thus their own gods. It's not new and God doesn't put up with it at all. The Bible front to back is a revelation of God and the coming Christ to the arrival of Christ to his death, reserection, him asscending to his impending return. If you can't find His skin color in there, don't assume anything on your own, and if you can't find His stand on abortion, remember that Christ is God and go back over and see if you can find anything at all to clue you in.

A case here or there where some family had a tragic event does not allow God fearing men and women to stand for open abortion. If there were a dozen cases like that a year it in no way justfies the 60 million aborted babies. If you love what God loves and stand for what God stands for you would be 100% against abortion(and other sin areas you tend to be very much ok with). It would be an abomonation in your eyes and a stench in your nostrils. But, I revert.... you made up your god and decided to make up one that is ok with abortion(and the other sin areas). This is why people need to run the other way when you start talking.

 

This is so true!!! I just don't get why people don't understand the REAL Jesus - he was a white guy with long blond hair, and he only spoke English. How stupid can people be to think Jesus was anything like them? Haven't they seen the pictures and the paintings? Next thing you know someone will be saying he looked like some Jewish dude, speaking that Jew-language.