Hate Sermons from the Pulpit

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]476119[/snapback]</div>

It's not meant to Bully, DARON, it's an attempt to point out that I have nothing to hide. My name IS TJ, while your name, I not certain of... It's much more difficult to have a logical conversation with a non de plum.

For the record, I am a 42 year old white guy named TJ. Who, has very little to hide. Why do you hide, Daron? Is not your God able to watch over you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]476119[/snapback]</div>

This is your biggest error. Your take on this famous verse is based on English. While that same verse can mean something else in another language. The one thing about John 3:16, is, since God IS Love, God so loved the world...that means God loves you and people from the whole world...all nations and tribes! Not just one select group.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]476119[/snapback]</div>

And a happy path it may be for some. Again, (and again, so it would seem), you want to foster your views on everyone.
Not
Everyone
Believes
In
Heaven
Hell
Christ
Or
God.


Simple enough. For some, at any rate. Also very simple, (and noted, that you could not find in the Bible where Christ said, 'Only Christians shall be saved'), is that Christ was sent here for EVERYONE. Not just a select few, but everyone. He did not care if you were atheist, Jewish, Finnish, Of The Spaghetti Monster, none of that matters. Christ was not set here to establish an earthly realm. He was set here with a core message of Peace and Love. Which, again, certain religious types have a problem with. I would guess, Daron, that you are the type that has to win. Your side is the correct one, in any game, and you must win.

Where as Christ, and those who follow Him, don't care who wins. It's not a game. It's just life here on this planet that we deal with, on a daily basis. Not one person, not even Christ, has returned from heaven (or hell, for that matter), to tell us what is beyond. So to pretend you know, for sure, that you are correct, and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, is childish, frankly.

You may be right. But I don't care, in the sense that you seem to think I do. I reply with many words, so you might just get the point. It's like the old adage: Throw enough on the wall, and some might stick.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]476119[/snapback]</div>

(sigh)
Again, not a 'made up' god. The one true God, in my view, is the one I follow.

If a person wakes up, decides Christ is for them, and then proceeds to get hit by the bus, dies, is that person denied heaven, because they did not have time to call up every sin, and ask God for forgiveness?

If Christ can know every hair on your head, surely He can know your heart. I do believe, that their are so many people in heaven, that you, Daron, would not expect there, since they did not follow your version of faith.

Your version, Daron. Not everyone else's. Clearly, to large a hurdle for you, and those who think like you, to jump. More to the pity.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 10:39 AM) [snapback]476130[/snapback]</div>

Is God Just? Is God perfect? Or, is God Love and does Love mean ignoring sin so that you don't feel bad for having sinned? Will there be Justice for sin against God? I hope you will pull this apart and let me know your answer to those questions.

Biblically, God is all of those. Just, Perfect and Love. At the end of the day, God is not going to leave the bill unpaid. Either you're going to pay for your sin, or because of your faith in Jesus Christ, He will pay your sin bill. The accounting will happen on this. If God was just going to blindly overlook the sin bill, there would be no reason for Christ to come present Himself as the sacrifice for the sin of all who will believe on Him in faith for the forgiveness of their sin.

God loved you enough that he took His step forward in giving you Christ so there would still be a way. Now, He's waiting for you to do your part in taking a step toward Him and believing on His Son by faith for payment of your sin bill.

In your world, not necessary. Just continue on in your sinful ways giving no regard to God or the sin in your life and in the end, god is love so all is cool. That's a formula for people heading straight for hell and you'll be giving an accounting for endorsing it (or creating it) if you made it up on your own.

I'll give you credit for making up a theology that the world will not have trouble following. They're already on the happy path to hell and when they hear your message they have no reason to change course.

 

STILL afraid to answer to the question of who you are, Daron?

Anyway.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 12:02 PM) [snapback]476151[/snapback]</div>

Love to, Daron.

Here is my 'pulled apart' answer.

God is God.


Since I, nor you, nor anyone else but Christ, is God, I, nor you, nor anyone including Christ, knows the mind of God.

A greater preacher then I, Billy Graham, has gone on record as of late, saying that even he (Billy), does no longer pretend to know who will be in heaven, or what decisions God will make in choosing who is there.




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]476119[/snapback]</div>

Your lack of sight beyond your nose does not make it any less legit to you, Daron. You see what you see, and that is what works for you. But you can't see what others see, and call that less legit then what you see.

Again, Daron, what God thinks and does are not for us to know, since, again, even Christ admitted He did not know the mind of God. How can we then?

Daron, do you enjoy these little esoteric arguments? Do you? I do. It's good to 'battle', (so to speak), with one who so fervently believes he is so right. When one is convinced that one is correct, and that everyone else is wrong, it does make you have an easier time of it, does it not?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 12:02 PM) [snapback]476151[/snapback]</div>

A 'sin bill'? Funny. I did not order any sin. So I should not have to pay for it, should I?

Would you pay a bill at a restaurant, if someone said to you, 'Daron over there is paying tonight. Put it on his bill' ?

No, of course not. So why do you think that anyone has a sin bill, at all, since Christ said, 'Don't worry, I am picking up the bill for this, and all sin. You don't have to pay me back.'

Why, oh why, Daron, do you feel the need to pay for a sin bill that Christ paid for already? Where did Christ say, 'Pay me back by believing in me'? No where, Daron. No where.

But for reasons that only your type of 'Christian' fathoms, you seem to think that there is still a price to pay, and that unless you pledge allegiance to God, it won't be paid for you.

Very curious, that.

 

Ahhhh, the Religious threads, gotta love them, they always open the cans of worms. :mellow:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 12:02 PM) [snapback]476151[/snapback]</div>

Again, Daron, not my message. It's the message of Christ that I choose to follow, and not pervert with unnecessary words of condemnation.

Man added all that extra stuff, so lesser men would fell fear, and follow them. Sort of like a bully, now that I think about it, who threatens to knock your block off unless you pay him your lunch money. And then after you pay him your lunch money, still knocks your block off. And then does again the next day.

Wow, Daron, you just gave me an unintended clarity into your mindset. Thanks!


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 11:18 AM) [snapback]476119[/snapback]</div>

Okay, Daron, where did Christ talk against abortions specifically? Now, He did speak against divorce, but I bet while abortions toast your cookies, divorce does not, right?

And Daron, don't you read what I write? I have stated that I don't like abortions. Maybe I did not use such colorful language as you do, but I still don't like them. But where you and I differ, is that I won't tell others what to do with their bodies. Not my place to do so, and neither is it yours, Daron.

Oh, and I did not say God is okay with abortions either, but I do think He understands how some people might have a need for them, since He can not only forgive it, but has already. He does not force His views on anyone, Daron. Not anyone.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(pyccku @ Jul 10 2007, 11:25 AM) [snapback]476125[/snapback]</div>

:lol:

That was so on target. Thanks!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Jul 10 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]476169[/snapback]</div>

Indeed. Though worms might be a little too generous.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 9 2007, 09:02 PM) [snapback]475943[/snapback]</div>

Now, that is a silly question. Everyone knows that daronspicher and his ilk are the judges of the "true" gospel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]476158[/snapback]</div>

It's not who I say I am that matters, but who Google says I am. :lol:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]476158[/snapback]</div>

Agreed... Billy is a much greater preacher than you. For the last 50 years, he's been having crusades stating "You are fine with whatever you want to do with your life, sin all you want and in the end, God will overlook it".

Um... No... Go back and listen again, Billy (and franklin) have had one of the most simple reconcilliation messages to God and have stayed on message over all the years. Go listen again, and then take it home as an action plan for yourself.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]476158[/snapback]</div>

You arrived on planet earth before you knew you were here and you ate that first sin sandwich and hung around the resteraunt for the rest of your life racking up a tab, so whether or not you ordered off the menu or not, you got a bill coming. We all do.. Who's paying yours?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]476158[/snapback]</div>

To make it simple and quote Billy... Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Come as you are.. Doesn't say you need to believe and then go beat your head with rocks... doesn't say you have to get your life all fixed up before you come.. but you do have to come (make a move) and you do have to believe...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 11:20 AM) [snapback]476158[/snapback]</div>

That's exactly it. Choose God and His ways and spend eternity with Him, or choose not God and spend eternity seperated from Him.

Are you back from your trip to Google yet?

 

Oh, now this, this I will enjoy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 01:03 PM) [snapback]476201[/snapback]</div>

*Ahem*

Graham believes both the right and the left in America have sometimes gone too far, elevating transitory issues when, in Graham's view, the core message of the Gospel, and the love of God "for all people" should take priority. Others relish the battlefield; Graham now prizes peace. He is a man of unwavering faith who refuses to be judgmental; a steady social conservative in private who actually does hate the sin but loves the sinner; a resolute Christian who declines to render absolute verdicts about who will get into heaven and who will not. One of the most formidable figures in the 2,000-year story of Christian evangelism, he is the first to tell you he is far from perfect. He is an evangelist still unequivocally committed to the Gospel, but increasingly thinks God's ways and means are veiled from human eyes and wrapped in mystery. "There are many things that I don't understand," he says. He does not believe that Christians need to take every verse of the Bible literally; "sincere Christians," he says, "can disagree about the details of Scripture and theology—absolutely."

Graham spends hours now with his Bible, at once savoring and reconsidering old stories and old lessons. While he believes Scripture is the inspired word of God, he does not read the Bible as though it were a collection of Associated Press bulletins straightforwardly reporting on events in the ancient Middle East. "I'm not a literalist in the sense that every single jot and tittle is from the Lord," Graham says. "This is a little difference in my thinking through the years." He has, then, moved from seeing every word of Scripture as literally accurate to believing that parts of the Bible are figurative.

He is arguing that the Bible is open to interpretation, and fair-minded Christians may disagree or come to different conclusions about specific points. Like Saint Paul, he believes human beings on this side of paradise can grasp only so much. "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror," Paul wrote, "then we shall see face to face." Then believers shall see: not now, but then.

God chose to effect salvation through the execution and resurrection of his son. "As time went on, I began to realize the love of God for everybody, all over the world," he says. "And in his death on the cross, some mysterious thing happened between God and the Son that we don't understand. But there he was, alone, taking on the sins of the world."

Asked about his son's use of the phrase "evil and wicked" in reference to Islam, Graham says: "I would not say Islam is wicked and evil ... I have a lot of friends who are Islamic. There are many wonderful people among them. I have a great love for them. I have spoken at Islamic meetings, in Nigeria and in different parts of the world."

A unifying theme of Graham's new thinking is humility. He is sure and certain of his faith in Jesus as the way to salvation. When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have." Such an ecumenical spirit may upset some Christian hard-liners, but in Graham's view, only God knows who is going to be saved.


Pilgrim’s Progress, from Newsweek.





Daron, now that you have read Billy's words, now what do you have to say? Will you spin it somehow to prop up your view? Billy says, and I will quote him right here again: When asked whether he believes heaven will be closed to good Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus or secular people, though, Graham says: "Those are decisions only the Lord will make. It would be foolish for me to speculate on who will be there and who won't ... I don't want to speculate about all that. I believe the love of God is absolute. He said he gave his son for the whole world, and I think he loves everybody regardless of what label they have."


There you go. Have a great day!

(I told you that Billy is a greater preacher then I am, and you agreed. Now, do you see why I enjoyed that?)

 

There is a reason why non-christian religions are growing by leaps and bounds.
There are those foaming at the mouth in this thread which are a perfect example of why people are leaving 'the fold' in droves.

As a personal observation, based upon way too many years as a 'faithful follower', it seems that the people that are the most insecure in their beliefs, the ones that are really worried that maybe, just MAYBE, if someone pokes a little at their beliefs, the whole thing will fall apart, are the same ones that push their beliefs the hardest onto others. Safety in numbers?

After the resurrection, Jesus was talking to one of his followers. His follower pointed at another guy and asked, "hey, what about him? shouldn't he be doing what you are telling me to do?" Jesus said, "don't be worrying about him. you just worry about yourself."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 12:46 PM) [snapback]476221[/snapback]</div>

I'm not sure it was legal in texas for you to get that much enjoyment out of that. You may want to turn yourself in to the authorities or at least go pay a fine.

back on topic... (not of the thread, but of the ensuing hijacking)

You don't quote your source, and as Billy himself said... he doesn't get it right every time. I'm not sure if his mind is still sharp today or when he supposedly made those remarks. I do agree with Franklin on the absolute of Christ being the only way to salvation. If those are billy's quotes on tape then I would tell you he's gone weak on the topic, kudo's to franklin for having a backbone. If it's some reporter liberally misrepresenting what he thought billy said, then I see how it came out that way.

Here's the Billy we all know for about 50+ straight years. Same message:

For all those years, he seemed to know who will be saved. (at that point, his list was the same as you find in God's word)... I find that parallel interesting... Dissapointingly, you disagree with his message. You think everyone is saved... Why is the road to salvation narrow and the path to destruction wide if no one is on the path to destruction and everyone is saved? Oh... right.. you blacked that part out of your bible too.. When will I learn to stop asking why you don't have any of these in your belief system.... that darn black marker... almost like you spilled a bucket of black paint on your bible and then just wrote your own ideas back in.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9037605/Billy-Graham

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:15 PM) [snapback]476245[/snapback]</div>

All right class, everyone tell Daron where I quoted my source.


And here it is again, just for you, Daron.


Pilgrim’s Progress, in NEWSWEEK, which is the source that I quoted up there in my post, you click here, and you will get the same thing as before when I posted it .




<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rae Vynn @ Jul 10 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]476236[/snapback]</div>

I can dig that.

Oh, and as I suspected, it's SPIN TIME WITH DARON! Let's see how the 'Christian' spins this!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:15 PM) [snapback]476245[/snapback]</div>

So, since Billy has changed his view, Daron, you feel you need to stab him (Billy that is), in the back, and give 'kudos' to his narrow minded, racist son, who advocates hatred against another religion then? Is that how it goes for you? Wowza.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 01:31 PM) [snapback]476256[/snapback]</div>

You got one article from a liberal source which seemingly is not the Billy who's been America's pastor for 50 years. I agree that Billy is subject to having gone weak on the subject or is being misquoted in that article. There's my response..

What do you have to say about the simple message that Billy preached 1000's of times over decades so clearly?

I'll quote it back just for you:

Was Billy saying that all those years out of error and has now seen the truth in this one article? Your article is not the only thing where I come to odds with Billy Graham and think he's gotten it wrong over the years, but his life long simple message of the Gospel and the work of his life is right on.





<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]476256[/snapback]</div>

That's a bit out of character for 'TJ the love bug' to call Franklin racist. Where is your love for franklin? Doesn't your 'everything goes Jesus' love Franklin too?

What if truth to him is racism to you? Can we all have it all ways like you can for your made up religion?

You just toss the word hatred out like you are the owner of it. Do you have a website where the world comes to get your approval for what is hatred and what is not?

Franklin tells it straight up and you get uncomforable. Good for him, you need to be uncomfortable with your message.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

Why do you bring politics into the discussion? Why the feeble attempt to discredit something by calling into question its political affiliation? Go back and try this one again, please. Politics and religion are not good bedfellows.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

Two things:
1. You continually demonstrate that the truth finds us, and not the other way around.
2. Your repeated use of the term "made up religion" is becoming increasingly repugnant.

Next: Daron on, how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin.
*Is it a finite number, cause Angels exist in this world?
*Or is it infinite, since they're also of another?

Semantics, semantics, semantics. Your words are obfuscating the very truth you (purport to) seek. Use your heart and your soul, not your brain and your eyes.

I'm wondering if this very concept of primacy, which Christianity clings to so dearly, will actually contribute to its demise...? You'd think the truth would be self evident...but, wait, evil Satan (not Saitan, the meat substitute, but Satan, the guy with the pitchfork) is confusing me...right...?

I think that every religion should stand alone, on its own merits...not compete like this for top spot on the winner's podium.

It's like, if your version of Christianity doesn't make sense, then the fault lies with us, somehow? Doesn't work like that, no matter how much you'd like it to be otherwise.

------

You're seeking to be understood, more than you're seeking to understand.

 

Y'all are too wordy for me. I gather TJ preaches somewhere and that Daron attends somewhere else and disagrees with TJ's version of things, and vice versa.

One observation: While you might not agree with Daron, if he believes that your soul is at risk, his persistence might just be out of concern for you. Be nice.

I don't think anybody is getting anywhere around here, so I'm shaking the dust from my sandals....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

And so be it. Your response gathers your essence into one simple word: hatred. I have heard long and hard from conservative right wing types, (that so far, you fit the profile of), and frankly I could speak eloquently on the very essence of Christ and His message, but for you, I am part of the liberal set, and therefore, have no valid thoughts or beliefs.

Even if, I am card carrying Republican, who, voted for Ronald Reagan, George Bush (the first and second, did I vote for once, each), kind of guy.

I am pro choice, pro death penalty, and pro gun control. I am for an educated electorate, who thinks that there is far too many who don't vote, that should.


I am what I am, and am not hiding who I am.

My response to you is that I feel that politics and relgion should not mix, but they do, and that is something I can't stop, so it seems. Try as I might.


For the record: I don't care if ANYONE agrees with me, or my politics. I am just stating them here, so everyone knows I have nothing to hide. No hidden agenda.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

I do not know. He changed his mind, after thoughtful dedicated prayer about it? That no man is above changing their mind, if they wish? That perhaps the conclusion I got to, (after 36 years of being around God and 'church'), taught me about the Truth faster then it did for Billy?

That it's okay to change one's mind? That a open mind is a wonderful thing?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

So very typical of the modern 'Christian' to pick and choose what suits them. Don't like the part about sacrificing the pig for sins? Okay. Dismiss it as 'old testament; does not apply any more' But hold on, there is two bits from the old testament that must be true: Tithing and that whole Leviticus thing about 'gays'. We like those, so we will keep them.

That is how the modern 'Christian' goeas about it. And you say I 'black out' parts of the Bible I don't like? Right.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

No, it's not out of character at all for me. I won't hide back what I feel about someone. See, I have said, time and time and time and time again, I am not perfect, and I don't care what you think. Do I find what Franklin to say as racist? Yup. Do I find what he has to say about other religions appalling? Yup. Do I think Christ loves Franklin? Yup.

He loves everyone. I don't. I won't pretend to. Oh, I can tolerate others, sure. But I don't have to like them.

I am human, you see. Christ is God. Whole other thing. Hard for you to grasp, it would seem.


(TJ the love bug...cute. I have owned several Bugs in the past. )

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 10 2007, 03:28 PM) [snapback]476351[/snapback]</div>

I'm learning a lot from this discussion, and it's making me think...perhaps it might be worth your time to go back and read more of what' been written...? do not know, just a thought.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Jul 10 2007, 02:46 PM) [snapback]476266[/snapback]</div>

Okay, really, for the last time, (although I doubt it, given your nature), it's not a 'made up' religion. It's just as real to me, and millions like me, as your take on it is to you . I try to respect your view, and it would be so cool if you returned it.


I don't own hatred, but I know what it is, and have felt it a lot, since my eyes got opened to the Truth. When I first became 'saved', I was hated by my 'secular' friends, for going all Jesus Freak. Then, when I became a Pastor, I was hated by those that I passed by due to my accelerated course completions.
Then, when I started to speak out openly about what I see as hypocrisy and lies in the modern church, I was (and am still), hated by those who profess to know Christ and His love. So yeah, I know hatred.

Franklin tells his version of the truth. I am not uncomfortable with him, or his take. It works for him, and you, and that is great, Daron.

Since I have peace in my 'message', I am not even close to uncomfortable with it.




Anyway. This is now beating the dead horse. So, unless you really think you have something new to add, I will leave you be.


Unless, you egg me on. Hard to resist that. Again, Human am I.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Jul 10 2007, 05:47 PM) [snapback]476398[/snapback]</div>

Too many words, too many of them truly mean-spirited. Too many strong words tossed around cavalierly. Too much name calling, even by speakers saying they are full of peace and love. Lots of finger pointing and finger shaking. Hard to learn much from that.

But if it's making you think, well, good. Have at it.

How about this for a thought. Take this quote that I cut and pasted from somewhere above:
QUOTE
Graham's popular appeal was the result of his extraordinary charisma, his forceful preaching, and his simple, homespun message: anyone who repents of sins and accepts Jesus Christ will be saved.[/u]

What exactly does acceptance mean? Professing?

If I say I am a Christian but nothing is changed on the inside, am I?

All those converts who said they believed -- is that all? What about the life Jesus promised -- right here on earth?

Revisit the Great Commission: Go make disciples.

What did the disciples do? Followed Jesus and learned from him. So what am I supposed to do? Follow Jesus, learn from him and try to be like him. And have him dwell in me.

Are you really a believer if your belief has not changed you and the choices you make? Are you really going to spend eternity with someone (your creator) you pretty much avoided all your earthly life?

Your sins aren't the problem. Past, present and future have been taken care of. You can't do any good works that will buy you grace, either. But the message is to reach for that relationship. He's reaching back.

Christ asks for belief that leads to relationship. Not sin management, not social justice, not good works. Life is changed by that relationship.

And the only judge is God.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 10 2007, 07:35 PM) [snapback]476515[/snapback]</div>

How? What's the point of the relationship? Given that I don't believe that the other side of the relationship exists what then? Ultimately, I think this comes down to wiring and that's why these threads end up going nowhere.

Here's my point of view: The Bible offers nothing but a process. It has nothing revolutionary in it, many of its best ideas were proposed long before Christ walked the earth. Now, mind you, I think that there are bits on the New Testament that are worthwhile. I don't think the Old Testament has much that's useful.

I don't understand the circular logic that people use to validate the Bible. I don't see what attracts them to it. I don't think that one has to believe what's written in the Bible to lead a moral, worthwhile life.

That's my (current) point of view. It may change. I ponder religious/spiritual (actually, I think that those are two different things) issues on a (roughly) daily basis. I enjoy using parentheses in sentences (as if you didn't know that). I consider myself an agnostic with atheistic leanings. Like everyone else my position is intuitive because, sadly, there's no rigorous proof either way (which is why I'm an agnostic). I've become more accepting of all views. It's been a journey and it hasn't been easy. I'm frustrated by certain points of view and I just simply don't understand most of the theist ones. It would seem that it's something intrinsic. Everybody falls somewhere on a spectrum from religious to, well, utterly not. The distribution is probably a Bell curve.

The important thing, I think, is to not let the details divide us. We can all learn from each other and it's important to try to keep an open mind, to always be mindful of other points of view.