Hate Sermons from the Pulpit

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TJandGENESIS @ Jul 10 2007, 04:50 PM) [snapback]476400[/snapback]</div>

I guess this has to come down to what you feel is hatred. I don't hate you and don't have hatred for you, I just disagree with some of your message and engage it as such. Nobody on here is going to turn from their sin no matter how long we discuss our differences on what's real and what aint. The chimer-inners are the best... I do it just to see what they got to say.

Later...

 

Ever notice the flip/flopping that occurs in the religion based threads? B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 11 2007, 03:35 AM) [snapback]476675[/snapback]</div>

Tripp,
First off, I appreciate your respectful tone. And I admire your active search, and agree with your distinction between spirituality and religion.

I also agree that you can live a good and moral life without belief. I don't know what you use for your standard of good and moral, because most of our standards come from our Judeo-Christian heritage. Whether or not you find the stories valid, they are a part of our culture and have shaped what we believe.

For instance, did you know that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice Isaac in part to show that he was not like the other "gods" who were worshiped in that region? The other "gods" demanded child sacrifice. This act proved that the God of Abraham was different. Nearly every thing that Jesus said was a radical change from what even the religious people of the time believed. (My favorite is: Don't invite your relatives to dinner.....)

As far as having a relationship with someone you don't believe exists, that could be a challenge. Many people who started off believing that God/Jesus did not exist found out differently and changed their lives -- and those of others.

I'm not going to thump the bible at you. I'm not qualified for one thing. You wouldn't be swayed for another. And neither of us has the time. But I disagree with your assessment. The bible's not a textbook or history or a newspaper account of what happened. It's a collection of writings going back to witnesses and followers of those witnesses. It uses a variety of written forms to shed light on who we are, who God is and how we are connected to him. We can differ on interpretations, but if you find it invalid (not sure exactly what you mean -- invalid can be a lot of things), or false, I can't change that for you.

God has many ways of revealing himself to people beyond the pages of the bible. Some strain credibility, but I am not in a position to judge. Others knock me out with their power.

If you are searching, you will find.

I am praying for you by name. Many blessings.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 11 2007, 10:34 AM) [snapback]476875[/snapback]</div>

VW,

Thanks.

It's true that our (meaning western) standards are largely derived from that standard, but many of the tenants of that standard are also found in other very old cultures. I believe that they're pre-wired attributes. Some of the better aspects of human beings really.

For me the good and moral is simply treating people with respect and minimizing suffering in your own life and in the lives of those around you. It doesn't have to be epic sacrifice. Epic sacrifice would be necessary if everybody adhered to a basic level of respect.

There's also a lot of brutish beat down in the OT. Numbers has some pretty brutal passages.

And for that I'll always be indebted to you.

Well, invalid would be a poor choice, if I said that it was by mistake. I think that it is a collection of writings of men without any sort of divine intervention. The writings are varied, of course, it was and is a living document. I think that there are many excellent ideas in it. I also think that it carries a lot of baggage that isn't useful (to me, anyways). However, I don't think that it's particularly profound. None of it's ideas are very original, certainly not any of the ones that can be applied to making the world a better place. I guess that's my hang up with most religions. They're very process oriented instead of goal oriented. Take, for example, the foundation of Protestantism. Faith alone is the way to Heaven (which is, I suppose the goal of the religion). The process is absolutely necessary to achieve the goal. Change the process and the goal is lost. Christianity is by no means unique in this respect. I'm highly suspicious of processes that claim to be the one true (valid) path to x, whatever x is. So, before we all fall asleep... I suppose that you could say that I'm much more concerned with earthly outcomes and I think that there are many valid processes that can achieve results. I guess I have more in common with Catholics than Protestants in that respect. On the other hand, I think that Catholicism is merely Roman polytheism redefined, so we don't have much in common.

Well, thankee mate. I'm pondering our situation(s), which I suppose is my equivalent.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hycamguy07 @ Jul 11 2007, 07:42 AM) [snapback]476728[/snapback]</div>

Have you noticed all the dogmatism that occurs in religion based threads?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Jul 11 2007, 01:12 PM) [snapback]476921[/snapback]</div>

Actually, I don't think heaven is the goal. The Kingdom of God is the goal -- being a part of it. And it starts in this life.

It's not about a far-off God or a far-off afterlife. It's about a God who is as present as the air we breathe, and the life that is this moment and forever.

About epic sacrifice: sometimes maybe yes. Hope I never find out if I would actually do that for someone, for I suspect I am selfish and a coward.

About how you live: I believe God created each one of us for a special purpose, and when we are living that purpose, even if it calls for epic or other sacrifice, that we are so well suited for it that it is indeed fulfilling and a glorious life. (Right now I am not to the fulfilling and glorious part in my own life; can't seem to make the difficult and courageous leap.)

You and I could probably agree on most everything except for the main point: God/Jesus.

A big difference, but our ponderings and prayers stand for something and reach out to one another.

(We also agree on our cars! )

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 11 2007, 02:24 PM) [snapback]477111[/snapback]</div>

If that were true, & this supposed creator were the loving entity often claimed, it would certainly have the decency and consideration to make clear to a Joseph Merrick just what that purpose is, instead of creating a Joseph Merrick and thrusting him heartlessly into the world with neither explanation nor mercy. It took the compassion of human beings to give Merrick a few brief years of relative solace before his deformity suffocated him as he slept at age 27; no "god" ever gave the tragic man a moment's respite.

And when one looks at the depravities committed at the scale that a Hitler attained, was that a fulfillment of "god's" special purpose for charismatic psychopaths? If not, that any man could so thoroughly thwart whatever benign purpose "god" had originally intended just knocks the notion right off its stool. Why bother assigning a "special purpose" at all if individuals are completely free to ignore, corrupt, subvert or otherwise act in every possible way EXCEPT in fulfillment of that "purpose" - particularly if no one has the slightest clue just WHAT that "special purpose" might be because the either cruel or moronic creator takes no pains to spell it out?

As beliefs go this is one much too narcissistic and daffy, especially daffy, to ever get my respect.

Mark Baird
Alameda CA

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(airportkid @ Jul 11 2007, 07:47 PM) [snapback]477176[/snapback]</div>

You will not get the answer to why there is evil in the world on a car chat thread.

Your response is well written and well thought-out. I like your word choice in "daffy." Sometimes that's just what faith is.

The world is broken. People have free will. Sometimes God abandons people to their own evil (Hitler, I would assume -- I know he did Pharaoh.)

I cannot tell you why the innocent suffer. I know that Christians are supposed to do what we can to stop that suffering and to confront evil.

You are fearfully and wondrously made. (from the Psalms).

And in my daffiness, I believe you have a purpose. Life fully and enjoy each day.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 13 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]478232[/snapback]</div>

Christian or not, words to live by.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(formerVWdriver @ Jul 13 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]478232[/snapback]</div>

Damn, an entire post that I mostly agree with. What's the world coming to?