Head to Head C-MAX MPG shootout vs. Prius liftback & Prius v

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Sergiospl, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    [​IMG]Toyota Prius v vs. 2013 Ford C-MAX Fuel Economy Comparison Drive
    While in San Diego last month, I had a Prius v-3 and a Prius five liftback mule. I then rented a 2013 Ford C-MAX from Avis Rental at the San Diego International Airport.
    The comparison focused on the Toyota Prius v and Liftback’s fuel economy vs. the 2013 Ford C-MAX claims through 4 very exacting tests including the following:

     
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  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    wow, shocking. but pretty much what we've been hearing. ford has their work cut out for them. although, people buying cmax/fusion, etc. may be buying over toyota for reasons other than mpg's.
     
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  3. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Very interesting! I've only skimmed Wayne's post. Not sure what happened to the Prius liftback for the city test, but it's not that important.

    It would be interesting to hear if/when the EPA has finally validated that everything Ford did was correct and that they were able to duplicate Ford's result (or not).
     
  4. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    That is solid evidence that C-Max has lower all around fuel economy than Prius v. Bigger tires, weighs more, more HP, sorry not going to win on FE.
     
  5. jameskatt

    jameskatt Member

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    Actually, the most interesting thing about the graphs is how well the Prius V keeps up with the Prius Liftback. For 5 and fewer miles per gallon difference as the speed goes up, you can get the Prius V with much more storage room and space for passengers than the standard Prius. That is well worth the sacrifice for many people - particularly cab drivers.
     
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  6. The Dude

    The Dude Member

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    Lmao ford...noobs
     
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  7. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...fantastic data as far as the speed vs. MPG, put that data in our FAQ's!

    overall that lifts "v" in my mind the "v" MPG is quite impressive match to liftback, better than I would have plotted if I made up the data (see I think like James)
     
  8. jonb505

    jonb505 Member

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    When the c-max epa numbers came out last year(remember all the "prius v killer" headlines? :) ) i had some serious buyers remorse over my recent prius v purchase. Almost to the point of cancelling my v order and getting in line for a c-max. Sure glad I kept my v!
    I'm sure the c-max has its virtues, from what i've read(never seen one jn person) more power, quieter, more traditional cockpit layout/shifter, none of which matter to me, but I could understand the appeal to some. Even at 35mpg your still doing better than 90% of non hybrid cars on the road!
     
  9. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    I notice all the MPGs are "temp compensated to 70 degrees". While interesting and a great graph, I'd like to know a little more about the wizardry behind the alteration of actual MPG received and the way the results were recorded.

    ~380 miles producing 5 data points on MPG vs speed means each sample was awfully small.

    I'm not disagreeing that the results you got were probable, just wonder at the rigor of the tests.
     
  10. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    My anecdotal experience driving the wagon for 3 months is better than Wayne reported, but I benefit from living at a high altitude. Wayne Gerdes set up what I consider the definitive test of fuel economy for these cars.
     
  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Anyway, that answers that: The Ford wagon is beat handily by the Prius wagon wrt to fuel economy. Will it translate into fewer Ford hybrid sales ? That is less obvious to me, although I imagine any thoughts people who own Prius might have been having of trying a Ford hybrid the next time a car purchase comes up are likely a lot less inclined now.
     
  12. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    how can it translate when EPA figures that customers see say 47 MPG for Ford and much less for Prius v?
     
  13. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Ford's recent hybrids can run up to 62 mph (IIRC, someone please correct me, if I'm wrong) w/the ICE off. If one looks at the EPA test schedules at Detailed Test Information, only 1 schedule even goes beyond 60 mph.

    This might give Ford quite an advantage as it doesn't need to run the ICE (which is inherently extremely inefficient) for much of the test and thus not releasing tailpipe emissions, which are what the test actually measures. I suspect a fair amount of the engine runtime to charge the batteries would be when it needs to run anyway: hard accelerations or when above 62 mph.

    I'd imagine that Wayne Gerdes' highway runs were beyond 62 mph for most of the driving...
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Are Ford hybrid owners required to sign an NDA ?
    Perhaps you are suggesting that no one reads CR, or any of the other media publications panning Ford's fuel economy claims ?

    Just my opinion, I suspect that people who buy the Ford hybrid do so either because it is 'American' or because they want the reportedly superior suspension. If the cars average out to 40 mpg I think the fuel economy will be tolerated.
     
  15. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I can imagine drive cycles that takes advantage of the higher EV speed threshold but I doubt the EPA test is one of them because the drivers are not allowed to pulse and glide. We both know that running the traction battery down to a mandatory recharge makes for if anything worse fuel economy.
     
  16. spwolf

    spwolf Senior Member

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    uh, most people dont read car magazines... i would suspect that most of them buy the car since it has far better EPA mpg. EPA tests are regulated so it would be easier to compare the vehicles.

    I suspect that Ford would be getting far worse sales if they put 5-9 MPG less on the sticker (than Prius v).
     
  17. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...we're all better off if FORD does well with hybrid sales. Probably part of our problem in Virginia is the politicians don't mind pushing Toyota around. I will certainly be open minded when we go to replace the Prius but, we will run the Prius into the ground first.
     
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  18. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    Yep, EPA test cycles have to follow the very specific schedule (specific speed at a specific time) so pulse and glide would be a no no.

    For more info see Car and Driver: The Truth About EPA City / Highway MPG Estimates | PriusChat.

    That said, if the car were optimized in such a way that the accelerations usually resulted in a pulse w/the ICE coming on and then remaining off for most of the test cycles, that could help explain the high ratings.
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Cwerdna,
    Now that I think about it a bit more after reading your post, I recant my earlier opinion. Most of the test decelerations would happen with the ICE off. Any idea what fraction of time that takes of the total ?

    By the way, I was most surprised by how poorly the Ford vehicles hypermile. I've guessed (incorrectly) all along that their higher EV threshold would make them the favorite of Wayne Gerdes types.

    Mostly this story sounds like a car tuned for the most prevalent speed the EPA is run at, but I thought eCVTs are less prone to inefficient gearing and thus less susceptible to gaming that aspect of the engineering.
     
  20. acdii

    acdii Active Member

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    Dont know if this helps any. Video taken on how to get 40 MPG in a Fusion Hybrid. Cold weather, and hills, dont help.
    Feb 14, 2013 7:41am | Facebook
     
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