Help with Prius Plug in or Prius

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by innerpri, Sep 14, 2012.

  1. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    Volt
    8.5kWh / charge * 6 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 2,652 kWh/yr (using only partial charge for 32 miles)
    2,652kWH * 1.1 lbs CO2/kwh = 2,917.2 lbs CO2/yr (will vary depending on local CO2/kWh)
    2,652kWH * $0.12/kWh = $318.24

    So the Volt saves each year:

    199.7 gallons of gasoline per year (100 % reduction)
    1,156.8 lbs of CO2 (28% reduction)
    $479.76 in fuel costs (60% reduction)

    using Rob's math.
     
  2. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Thanks John. To be sure we're using apples to apples, EV range should be typical observed range summer/winter average, power per charge should be AC kWh to include charge efficiency, gas consumed should include average of summer and winter consumption. I believe the Volt still uses some gas in winter in the north country, is that true? Also, CO2 reduction % calc looks backward. Should be 4074 - 2917.2 = 1156.8 / 4074 = 28% reduction.

    OP has already stated Volt doesn't meet his family needs, but its certainly good to have the data there to compare.

    Rob
     
  3. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    your right, it did it twice..... correcting my post.

    Is the 3.2kwh at the wall?

    32miles ev should still be within the winter range, but good point.

    The Volt will burn gas if temp is below 25F by my understanding and the OP is in the north.
     
  4. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    That seems like a typical kill-a-watt measured full charge from empty from what I've seen people posting, 3-3.2kWh.

    Rob
     
  5. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    ok, I'll recalc using 10kwh just to be conservative.


    Volt
    10kWh / charge * 6 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 3120 kWh/yr (using only partial charge for 32 miles)
    3120kWH * 1.1 lbs CO2/kwh = 3432 lbs CO2/yr (will vary depending on local CO2/kWh)
    3120kWH * $0.12/kWh = $374.40

    So the Volt saves each year:
    199.7 gallons of gasoline per year (100 % reduction)
    642 lbs of CO2 (16% reduction)
    $424 in fuel costs (53% reduction)

    the Co2 reduction assumes you can't purchase green electricity.
    Fuel costs assume no reduced night time or EV electric rates
    [ I pay $25/6 months for unlimited charging from renewables]
     
  6. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Looks good John, thanks!
    Rob
     
  7. innerpri

    innerpri Junior Member

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    Rob,
    Thanks for the organization of thought and math. I currently drive a 96 volvo, and if I plugged in my numbers for the volvo and compared, what a difference, 21.3 miles per gallon. We live close to most stores, 5 miles to walmart, 6 to the city. I could potentially, pure ev, to a lot of locations. I really am enjoying everyone's point of view and comments. Thank you.
     
  8. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    Rob, are you being a little generous with 13.5 miles EV, winter and summer, for the PiP?
     
  9. rockerdan

    rockerdan PiP Rocks!

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    for you Volt people.....I know many people like myself would be very wary of a GM product, especially one that is BRAND NEW design and concept. Where as the prius has about the best reliability according to consumers magazine of any car made today.

    How have the Volts been so far? any issues come up? I hope they dont have any reliability issues as this will help the EV Hybrid cause. But most GM products always have problems from my experience.

    I do like the sound of 40EV range, and also think they are very nice looking!

    Dan
     
  10. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Could very well be! I don't have a PiP, and am just basing that on what I've heard people report. I assumed 12 mi winter, 15 mi summer. Anyone want to comment on a reasonable average summer/winter range? Note that for the purpose of this calculation this isn't pure EV, but total EV consumed in either EV or blended mode over a drive that's long enough to completely deplete the battery. The summer/winter difference also appears in the assumed 55/45mpg HV average. I'm sure there are some people who have experienced very low effective ranges, just as their have been reports of Volts getting as little as 20 mi range in cold temps, but just trying to find a reasonable average for the northern US.

    Rob

    The big issue I've heard of was the battery recall, was it last fall/winter? So far they seem to be doing pretty well. Better than the Leaf's perhaps, which seem to be having some issues losing range over time in high temperature areas like Phoenix.

    Based on the numbers here:
    August 2012 Dashboard | Hybrid Cars

    Total sales so far are:

    Volt: 13,497 ('12 Jan-Aug) + 7,671 (2011) = 21,168
    Leaf: 4,228 ('12 Jan-Aug) +9,674 (2011) = 13,902
    PiP: 6,068 ('12 Mar-Aug) + 0 (NA 2011) = 6,068

    Volt sales seems to be growing nicely, Leaf started strong but has faded this year, PiP is still pretty new but growing.

    Rob

    ... Can't seem to upload an image right now ...
    Here's the monthly sales data from the same source. Finally got the table formatting right :)
    Column 1
    0 [th][th]Volt[th]Leaf[th]PiP
    1 [tr][td]Dec-10[td]326[td]19[td]
    2 [tr][td]Jan-11[td]321[td]87[td]
    3 [tr][td]Feb-11[td]281[td]67[td]
    4 [tr][td]Mar-11[td]608[td]298[td]
    5 [tr][td]Apr-11[td]493[td]573[td]
    6 [tr][td]May-11[td]481[td]1142[td]
    7 [tr][td]Jun-11[td]561[td]1708[td]
    8 [tr][td]Jul-11[td]125[td]931[td]
    9 [tr][td]Aug-11[td]302[td]1362[td]
    10 [tr][td]Sep-11[td]723[td]1031[td]
    11 [tr][td]Oct-11[td]1108[td]849[td]
    12 [tr][td]Nov-11[td]1139[td]672[td]
    13 [tr][td]Dec-11[td]1529[td]954[td]
    14 [tr][td]Jan-12[td]603[td]676[td]
    15 [tr][td]Feb-12[td]1023[td]478[td]
    16 [tr][td]Mar-12[td]2289[td]579[td]911
    17 [tr][td]Apr-12[td]1462[td]370[td]1654
    18 [tr][td]May-12[td]1680[td]510[td]1086
    19 [tr][td]Jun-12[td]1760[td]535[td]695
    20 [tr][td]Jul-12[td]1849[td]395[td]688
    21 [tr][td]Aug-12[td]2831[td]685[td]1047
     
  11. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The new product was a change, and almost a requirement, for GM to show its changed and understands the need for quality. Designing for quality, from the beginning, helps.


    Volts have been VERY reliable including winning 3d party analysis/awards for it, e.g.
    Chevrolet Volt and Audi A8 Lauded in 2012 J.D. Power APEAL Study - WOT on Motor Trend
    VW, Toyota And Volt Score Well In Total Quality Index | Hybrid Cars
    The 2011 was ranked by Consumer reports to be GM most reliable car (including beating all the Caddy's).

    As I recall, the volts 2012 total-quality-score of 913 made it the best "mid size" car (the categor in which the prius is ranked). (Like many of the rankings, they choose to put the volt in midsize category, which means it was directly compared).

    40miles EV is what I get in winter, 50 in summer if I drive the 55mph path to work, 37/46 if I take highway.
    You can see a lot of real-world data at voltstats.net.. where the median volt driver is now at 175MPG largely because they are at 80% EV.. (so very little need for gas). As it says in my sig.. since last october I'm doing way better with over 7600 miles on 16 gallons + 2050+ kWh of renewable energy.
     
  12. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    I am 20 year Toyota/Lexus bigot... 1980 Diesel Land Cruiser through 2007 Prius ... 250,000 miles on my 97 LX450, etc... I am a bit of a GM skeptic but the Volt got my interest and so far my support. It has only been a few months, and I am not chasing cattle around the ranch with it like I was known to do with my 95 LS400, but so far so good. This is my first vehicle without a J VIN since about 1992.

    My EV range earlier today, mainly 55-65 mph (terrible photo but I was driving and snapped this just before burning some gasoline @ 10.4kWh)

    [​IMG]
     
  13. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    I have been hearing 10 versus 13, but I suspect that is hwy vs street.

    is someone deleting posts in this thread?
     
  14. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    Here's a wag at testing the assumption. Based on the data reported so far here:
    PIP & MPG Spreadsheet | PriusChat

    The overall average miles / AC kWh for the fleet is 4.55. Since most users aren't inputting measured AC kWh, this appears to be estimated using an assumed 85% charge efficiency. For those who are reporting measured AC kWh, the average efficiency is 86%, so this assumption seems reasonable.

    Assuming a typical recharge seems to be 3.0-3.2 AC kWh, the average range would be 13.65 - 14.56.

    Since there is less than a year of data, and users are distributed around the country, this is skewed toward the "summer" range. We only have data so far from Mar to Sept (Aug really, only a few points in Sept so far), but the trend is interesting. Southern drivers are likely skewing summer numbers lower due to AC use just as northern winter drivers will so perhaps this is a reasonable year round average after all? I guess we'll only know once we get a real winter's worth of data.
    Column 1
    0 [th]month[th]mi/kWh[th]range[th]
    1 [tr][td]March[td]4.78679[td]14.36 - 15.32
    2 [tr][td]April[td]4.74846[td]14.24 - 15.19
    3 [tr][td]May[td]4.33333[td]13.0 - 13.87
    4 [tr][td]June[td]4.42308[td]13.27 - 14.15
    5 [tr][td]July[td]4.4758[td]13.43 - 14.32
    6 [tr][td]Aug[td]4.7676[td]14.3 - 15.25
    7 [tr][td]Sept[td]5.08333[td]15.24 - 16.27

    Rob
     
  15. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I noticed that your prev. post saying the same seemed to go missing. Most likely a server hiccup?
     
  16. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    too bad their isn't a bigger data sample on the PiP. I am going to ask Mike if he can calculate a fleet value for mi/kWh at VoltStats. I would expect the PiP to be a bit better than the Volt, but not seeing it. My own Sept number seems to be on par with the PiP sample fleet, and I run in the middle of the pack at VoltStats on most things.

    If I use 4.33mi/kWh then the compare chart would be 7.4kWh rather than the conservative 10kWh, a rather large delta. correct ?


    just as a side note.... on my daily route I get 6 mi/kwh on the first 20 miles
     
  17. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    I was starting to think I had developed alzheimers. Thanks!
     
  18. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    I would also expect the Volt to be less efficient. EPA numbers are 3.44mi/kWh for PiP vs. 2.78mi/kWh, or 19.2% less efficient. If that ratio holds, real life observed would be 4.55mi/kWh for PiP vs. 3.67mi/kWh for Volt. Looking at the data recorded at VoltStats, I'm not sure you can get the same value out. There doesn't seem to be a field for recording kWh for the tank, I assume because the Volt read out doesn't contain this info.

    The best we can do for real world data is probably to compare MPGe, though this get complicated fast. VoltStats reports fleet average of 64.59 vs. the PiP spreadsheet's 71.58, putting the Volt at ~9.7% less efficient. As you say this is significantly hampered by the small sample size of the Prius fleet.

    If the 4.55 and 3.67 numbers are in the ballpark, an apples to apples comparison would use a range of 14.1 mi for the PiP, and 36.7 mi for the Volt.

    Rob
     
  19. John H

    John H Senior Member

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    That is why I am suspicious since even GM uses 38 mi and that seems conservative to most owners. I seem to be at 4.33mi/kWh from the plug (public charging stations).

    The MPGe numbers on VoltStats are more a function of EV% rather than EV measurements. Mike is grabbing data from the RemoteLink interface into MyVolt.com and doesn't get the kWh charging numbers that are available. Maybe he can start grabbing them in the future.
     
  20. miscrms

    miscrms Plug Envious Member

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    So that would look like:

    Standard 50mpg Prius:
    32 mi * 6 days / week * 52 weeks per year = 9984 miles per year
    9984 miles /50mpg = 199.7 gallons per year
    199.7 gal * 20.4 lbs CO2/gal = 4074 lbs CO2/yr
    199.7 gal * $4/gal = $798.80

    Plug-in Prius
    17.9 mi * 6 days/week * 52 weeks per year = 5585 gas miles per year
    5585 / 50mpg = 111.7 gallons per year
    14.1 mi * 6 days/week * 52 weeks per year = 4399 EV miles per year
    3.1kWh / charge * 6 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 967.2 kWh/yr
    111.7 gal * 20.4 lbs CO2/gal + 967.2kWH * 1.1 lbs CO2/kwh = 3343 lbs CO2/yr (will vary depending on local CO2/kWh)
    111.7 gal * $4/gal + 967.2kWh * $0.12/kWh = $562.86

    Volt
    8.7kWh / charge * 6 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 2714 kWh/yr (using only partial charge for 32 miles)
    2714kWH * 1.1 lbs CO2/kwh = 2985 lbs CO2/yr (will vary depending on local CO2/kWh)
    2714kWH * $0.12/kWh = $325.7

    So for the case of 32 mile commute, one charge per day, gas at $4, electricity at $.12/kWh, electricity producing 1.1 lbsCO2 per kWh:

    The PiP saves each year:
    88 gallons of gasoline per year (44 % reduction)
    731 lbs of CO2 (18% reduction)
    $235.94 in fuel costs (29.5% reduction)

    The Volt saves each year:
    199.7 gallons of gasoline per year (100 % reduction)
    1089 lbs of CO2 (27% reduction)
    $424 in fuel costs (53% reduction)

    Note that this assumes the Volt burns no gas even in winter.

    Its also interesting to note the difference assuming the PiP could be charged at home and at work:

    Plug-in Prius - charge twice per day
    3.8 mi * 6 days/week * 52 weeks per year = 1185.6 gas miles per year
    1185.6 / 50mpg = 23.7 gallons per year
    28.2 mi * 6 days/week * 52 weeks per year = 8798 EV miles per year
    3.1kWh / charge * 2 charges * 6 days/week * 52 weeks/year = 1934.4 kWh/yr
    23.7 gal * 20.4 lbs CO2/gal + 1934.4kWH * 1.1 lbs CO2/kwh = 2611 lbs CO2/yr (will vary depending on local CO2/kWh)
    23.7 gal * $4/gal + 1934.4kWh * $0.12/kWh = $326.93

    In this case the PiP saves each year:
    176 gallons of gasoline per year (88 % reduction)
    1463 lbs of CO2 (36% reduction)
    $471.87 in fuel costs (59% reduction)

    Rob
     
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