High charging time on a brand new 2020 Prime

Discussion in 'Prime Main Forum (2017-Current)' started by DD1, Nov 3, 2020.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    At the very least get a 12V out of them,maybe some extra oil changes if you prefer a dealer doing it.
     
  2. m8547

    m8547 Senior Member

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    I measured the voltage it my circuit. It's 124V open circuit, but it drops to 116V while charging. The current is limited, so lower voltage generally means longer charge time.

    I think a more important measurement than charge time is the amount of energy. It should be ideally over 6kWh on a L1 charger. There's another thread that discusses it. I think you can expect about 6.5-6.8kWh max on L1. On L2 it should be more like 6-6.3. It will vary depending on several factors including the actual SOC remaining when you park (usually 12-14% for me on Hybrid Assistant).
     
  3. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    You are creating a crisis for yourself where none really exists.

    It is HIGHLY unlikely that just sitting ignored has done ANY damage to the HV battery.

    It is very LIKELY that the 12 V has been damaged from neglect and the dealership should replace it for you.
    The simple fact that a jump was needed on the lot is ample proof.

    It is even possible that a new 12 V will make you happier with the charging time.
    But even if it doesn't, you need to "get over it" and move on.........one way or the other.
     
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  4. DD1

    DD1 Junior Member

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    I hope Sam space 2 is right. In any case, the dealer sent me the page of the data sheet for the car they had with the most miles on it. It shows 0 times with long term ignition off, so far so good, but I do not have the repair manual and can not quite understand what the rest of the data on the sheet means (if anyone sees something useful in the attached file, please let me know).

    if anyone is looking for a good deal on a prime, and I have not managed to turn you off this dealer, they still have a few 2020 on the lot with the $4500 manufacturer’s incentive.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    This is great!

    Here is my charge history. Some state of charge (SOC) levels may be inaccurate.



    I think a good indicator of the battery health is how much kWh a 100% SOC takes. Mine is about 6.91 kWh per 100% SOC @ 120 V. However, this number seems to have been slowly and uniformly decreasing with each charge, indicating that the battery capacity in terms of kWh has been slowly and uniformly decreasing with each charge. Could you measure your kWh per 100% SOC? It should be around 7.0 kWh per 100% SOC @ 120 V for a healthy battery.
    The 12 V battery is 100% covered under the warranty—no questions asked. Do not attempt to replace it yourself while under warranty. Go to any dealer to have it replaced free of charge. Moreover, the LN1 battery size is quite unique and it's very hard to find an aftermarket replacement. You will have to buy an OEM one from a dealer when the warranty expires. However, there still seems to be only one aftermarket-brand battery of the LN1 size—it is an ACDelco. Nevertheless, when the warranty expires, it's probably safer to go with an OEM one from a dealer.
     
    #25 Gokhan, Nov 7, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
  6. DD1

    DD1 Junior Member

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    Gokhan, a 100% SoC takes 6.1 kWh (measured by the meter, though I also estimated the same number before having the meter from the miles driven and avg miles per kWh). If a healthy battery is around 7, then the capacity deterioration is about 15 percent.
    I think lithium batteries deteriorate more or less linearly until they get to about 60 percent capacity, and after that deteriorate very quickly. Anyone on this thread that has experienced more than a couple of percent deterioration - how many miles or charging cycles did it take?
    Since the dealership appears to have ignored all of their 2020 cars equally, I decided not to exchange it for another 2020 (given the absence of an objective test the dealer can run easily). So I have the option of keeping it or paying an additional $3000 to replace it for a 2021 model.
     
  7. DD1

    DD1 Junior Member

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    #27 DD1, Nov 8, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  8. DD1

    DD1 Junior Member

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    The 12V battery shows 12.25V after 2 days without driving.
     
  9. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    While I don't see any reason to suspect your 2020 PP's traction battery is substantially degraded beyond normal aging, if you are so worried about it, and the dealer is giving you this choice, yeah, go-ahead pay $3000 and get the 2021 model. The dealer will love you for that switch.
     
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  10. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Yeah, for a new battery you should get at least 6.90 kWh with the 120 V charger. Level 2 charger kWh will be ~ 6.3 kWh.

    Do a few more measurements and see if you are still getting ~ 6.1 kWh instead of the normal ~ 6.9 kWh. If the 6.1 kWh is correct, you have a degraded battery. A healthy battery should get you about a 37-mile round-trip (to eliminate altitude change) range in gentle (hypermiling) city driving in the eco mode.
     
  11. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    My Prime already had 23k miles on it when I got it in March of '19 but I can tell from the eco history that it was almost never plugged in by the original owner. Since then, I've added about 23k more miles to it. I've only bought gas twice this year, so almost all my miles are EV. In January, I started occasionally checking the amount of electricity it takes to fill the battery from depleted or within a half mile either way of depleted. Here's what I got using L2 charging as measured from the wall. Prior to keeping records, my observations were always just over 6 kWh for a depleted traction battery. Note that the energy measured from the wall is not all put into the battery. Some is used in cooling and other operations. L1 charging would take more kWh since it runs fans and stuff more than twice as long. There's been essentially no change in my battery's performance that I can detect. I should have another opportunity next Sunday to take another reading.
    Screen Shot 2020-11-08 at 11.22.09 AM.png
     
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  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Be careful with "should" expectations. That is an extreme for warmer climates, not even close to what I have ever seen... despite 3.5 years of ownership. Low 30's is my high returns... which is still in excess of the EPA rating by quite a bit.

    More realistically is to measure against the reported efficiency. How many miles are you getting per kWh of electricity, then take into account how much kWh are consumed total per charge.
     
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  13. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Indeed! Miles per kWh can vary tremendously with temperature, terrain, and traffic demands. Range will vary with the efficiency. Even here in FL which is a fairly constant climate, it varies from 25-35 miles. EV range is a horrible way to estimate battery health.
     
  14. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I have not done many full charges on my 2020 PP but for my previous 2017 PP using the "kill-a-watt" meter on L1. I have never seen anything higher than 6.9kWh for a full charge. The average over 3 years was ~6.5kWh. I also have seen people reporting less than 6kWh for a full charge with an L2 on the brand new battery. I think OP's full charge of 6.1kWh on an L1 is lower than what I have seen on mine, but with very limited numbers of data points and many variables to be considered, it does not seem to be unusual.

    Below is the graph of average kWh/full-charge (only full-charge from 0% EV to 100% EV was counted) during 30 months of my 2017PP ownership.

    Screenshot 2020-05-15 at 10.58.03 AM.png
     
    #34 Salamander_King, Nov 8, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
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  15. DD1

    DD1 Junior Member

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    Thank you for the informative discussion. I am using an L1 charger, which should use more energy as you explained. I wonder if there is an app that measures exactly how much electricity actually goes into the car. The range of charging times in Salamander King’s chart above is quite wide, which I would not expect if the same plug is used, the safety margins of the battery do not change over time (from 13 to 83 percent), the battery capacity has not degraded, and the garage temperature was moderate (so there was no energy wasted to warm or cool the battery). If about the usable range is about 70% of the 8.8 kWh battery, then the energy needed to fully charge it is about 6.15 kWh. From Salamander’s chart, the “loss” varies from 0.15 to 0.7 khw per charge with L1.
     
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  16. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    But what if the car has run the traction battery down to 10% before you start charging? About 13-14% is where it switches to HV but it can still go at least a couple miles before the ICE starts up. Also, see my answer (post #22) in PRIME is the third worst in the battery degradation. How is yours holding up? | Page 2 | PriusChat.
     
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  17. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    The displayed 100% SoC is very stable at 83-84%, but the displayed --% SoC (notice that there is no 0% display) is variable depending on how much HV drive you did after depleting the EV range as pointed out by @jerrymildred above. This --% SoC can be as low as 7% to as much as 15% real SoC as reported by others. For my limited number of data points (n=4), this range was 10.2% to 14.12%. See the graph below. In addition, you have ambient temperature factors with battery heater and/or battery cooler, climate preconditioning setting, and maybe other undisclosed variables Toyota has built-in for the battery charging algorism. For me, the full-charge with very similar conditions can show a wide range from 6.1 to 6.7kWh in the same month.

    screenshot-www.dropbox.com-2020.06.22-04_43_00.png
     
    #37 Salamander_King, Nov 8, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
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  18. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Right, the 0% SOC is not very accurate; so, for that reason, when you calculate the kWh per 100% SOC @ 120 V, it is better to measure the kWh from, say, 50% to 100% or 30% to 100% and then scale it to from 0% to 100%, instead of actually measuring it from 0% to 100%.

    My garage circuit is on the weak side (due to long wires or higher wire AWG), with the voltage dropping well below the standard 120 V when charging, and this may be a reason why I am seeing a little higher kWh per 100% SOC @ 120 V than most people. Moreover, I charge at 8 A instead of 12 A because of the circuit limitation, which takes roughly eight hours. This may also affect my kWh per 100% SOC @ 120 V.
     
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  19. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    Yap, that would make your total charge higher than normal L1 charged at 12A. The fans and other charging components of the car have to run longer.
     
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  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    The OP can easily test the kWh per SOC @ 8 A vs. 12 A @ 120 V. It's a settings option he can switch on the multifunction display.
     
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