Honda Accord Hybrid: 50 MPG City - clone Toyota

Discussion in 'Honda/Acura Hybrids and EVs' started by bwilson4web, Sep 8, 2013.

  1. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    We shall see IF Accord Hybrid can deliver on its promise of high MPGs. 50 city is cool and all, 45 hwy, great, but can it actually do it? Could I drive an Acc Hy during the Summer and get 47 actual combined on my commute?

    For all my complaints about Prius liftback, that little stinker delivers MPGs like mad. I regularly arrive home with high 50s or 60 on CONS gage (which is actually about 55 or 56, but, it easily beats EPA). Too bad Prius driver's seating is about a grade C- for me. Really brings the car down and I've busted butt to try to make it better (leather seat cover, board to rest leg on, foam on armrests)
     
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  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Over 100 miles of driving today, through wind & rain with 2 bikes on back, along with lots of cargo inside. Despite all that, the Prius still delivered 43 MPG in HV.

    Real-World results are what count.
     
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  3. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    I've seen very few instances of people getting close to epa combined in the Fusion hybrid. For the vast majority of Camry and Prius owners, it's usually not far away, or higher. This winter I'll have a chance to check out my new V mileage. Our Camry hybrid does just fine in the winter, with as much as a 4 mpg drop if it stays close to home, but not much of a drop at all if we do the normal route. Pays to let it warm up first, unlike conventional gas vehicles.

    If the new Accord does achieve mileage within the epa limits as the Toyotas do. Ford will be the big loser. Hard to say whether their sales achievements are do to customers not really caring what they get, or they just haven't been given a huge voice to complain yet. Some people are really quite apathetic about mileage if the like the rest of the car. I know a certain friend of mine that I introduced Fuelly to. He previously did the spa site. His real-world mileage in his FH is around 39, and pretty consistent. He knows I drive faster than he does, but claims my V does better because I'm such a Prius poke LOL I pass him every morning ;)

    I asked him why his online mileage is so much better than what he really gets???? He claimed it was preservation of resale value. We both know for real just which car will win that race too.

    IMO, the real combined mileage for comparison of the Furion Hybrid should be around 38-40, with 40 maybe on the high end.
     
  4. Aerolite

    Aerolite Junior Member

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    Perhaps an assumption is a V driver would be more heavy footed compared to the hatch, and would carry more weight on trips? When looking at the profile I was hard pressed to believe it had such low figures in comparison...

    Agreed... my Prius has the leather interior and leather steering wheel options. In regard to tactile feeling, they certainly make a massive improvement to the car's dynamics. That being said, I'm 6'1' and the seating position... no matter how the seat is set forward or backward, feels too upright and uptight. I'm not ready to trade the efficiency for more space [yet] but will closely be watched the new Prius.
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Actually you haven't really busted your butt to make the Prius seats better. ;)
    Right about the time you joined PC, there was another PC member who truly showed what upgrading Prius Seat comfort is/was all about. I give you ... the cushy Volvo seats:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    All that to say - there are a few comfort nazis out there that have really REALLY gone the extra mile when it comes to fluffing up the Prius comfort level.

    Here's the thread that talks about all the effort going into the mod:
    Operation Volvo Seats in a prius | PriusChat

    I added more back support foam (for my 6'5" frame (as well as the 'extend my seat' mod) - and seat warmers. That did the trick for me. But if it hadn't ... this would have been the next step.
    .
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Test drove a 2004 S40 once. It had the most comfortable car seats I have ever sat in. I think Volvo would do well making furniture.
     
  7. sURFNmADNESS

    sURFNmADNESS Prii Family

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    One would think they would want to target just above 45mph, perhaps 48 mph before being off all electric. Since so many roads are 45 mph around America. 43 mph just seems not well thought out.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    It's a hybrid, not a plug in. All the energy for the car is coming from gas. So gasoline efficiency was likely prioritized over EV experience.
     
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  9. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    Found these 2 articles today, trying to explain how it works:

    http://www.autonews.com/article/20130930/OEM06/309309954/how-the-honda-accords-innovative-hybrid-system-works#axzz2glEEkaD9

    Explaining the Honda Accord's Shrewdly Designed New Hybrid System – Tech Dept. – Car and Driver

    I thought it was interesting that the engine can shift in and out of Atkinson cycle, and that they took the Volt approach as far as being all electric below 43 mph, and then direct coupling the engine above that point. One of the articles says the motor and engine collaborate above that point, which seems different from what some people were saying (implying it was all engine above 43 mph). I can see that the generator is always connected to the engine, and that the motor is always in line, but I have a couple of questions:

    1. Is the computer varying the relative amount of power contributed by the motor and engine above 43 mph, or are there other tricks in play?

    2. How can the single gear setup (what 1 article likens to a 6th gear) operate efficiently across such a wide range (43 to 114 mph)?

    Enlighten me you techno wizard car guys!
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I don't see anything else beyond the computer control.



    Low engine rpm. Hypermilers with manuals will shift gears up as soon as possible. Sometimes even skipping some, as from going to 1st to 3rd. So they can be in 5th gear by 35 or 40mph. This keeps the rpms low with every revolution of the engine being closer in ratio to the revolution of the wheels. So less fuel burned per distance traveled.

    But acceleration is, well, crap. The lower gears, and the torque convertor on an automatic, multiply the engine output for acceleration. The Accord hybrid has the electric motor for that

    Keep in mind, while 43 to 114 mph is a wide range in values, the engine's rpm won't be climbing as drastically as the speed during that time. The wide range of valve control also means the engine has a wider efficient zone to work in. Plus, the motor is there to input also. Mainly for passing events on the highway, but those are few while cruising.
     
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  11. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    So I guess the plug in version is pretty much just more batteries and slightly different software programming...
     
  12. dipper

    dipper Active Member

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    At least the non-plugin version got rid of that ugly grill and Superman size "H" badge in the front. Instead use the same as regular Accord front look.
     
  13. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Until we see other diagrams, I would say yes. At 43, the ice probably only has enough torque to do a little above steady state, not for hills or acceleration. I would think then the battery would add to power, but get recharged at down hills or decelerations. At higher speeds battery would provide power during accelerations and SOC would change the charge discharge characteristics.

    Well it can't, if they optimize it for efficiency at 43mph-75mph, then 114mph simply is not going to be efficient. The transmission should be more efficient than the hsd in the prius though at these higher speeds. Where an hsd would be more efficient than this set up is between 10 and 43.
     
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  14. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    Given that, and other efficiencies claimed in the articles, I was wondering why they couldn't get a better highway number. But still not bad, and I care more about the city number anyway. Despite the simple gearing, I'm wondering if the clutches create more maintenance cost or possible reliability issues compared to the PSD.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    If no errors were made with design, or short cuts during manufacture, there should be any problems. These are the same clutches used in an automatic transmission. The days of 30k service intervals and going past 100k is pushing it are long past for them, and they are far more complicated than this.
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thank you for the links. The Car and Driver made it clear:
    * * *
    1. Is the computer varying the relative amount of power contributed by the motor and engine above 43 mph, or are there other tricks in play? In steady state, it is a serial hybrid at low speeds. When the clutch closes at higher speeds, it becomes a combined parallel and serial hybrid. This means it can add or subtract as much power from the electrical power system as needed.

    2. How can the single gear setup (what 1 article likens to a 6th gear) operate efficiently across such a wide range (43 to 114 mph)? It is the advanced engine valving and cooled, recirculated exhaust. The short duration high power comes from the stored battery energy.

    * * *
    At low speed, the serial hybrid drive train will be relatively inefficient BUT the high efficiency, engine will help compensate. It is a clever solution but the Toyota system will always be more efficient at low speeds because of the power split:
    • Honda drive train at low speeds -> 92% * 92% ~= 85%
    • Toyota drive train all speeds -> (28%*85%) + (72% * 98%) ~= 94%
    • Honda drive train at high speeds -> ~98% minus whatever proportion the electric path adds
    Given identical engine efficiency, rolling and aerodynamic drag, the Toyota has about a 10% advantage at low speeds. At high speeds, the Honda clutch coupled engine will have a 4% advantage. Pick your poison.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Car and Driver still does not understand the Toyota system . . . but they don't have to. <grins>
     
  17. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    these clutches should be more reliable than manual transmission clutches, as they get electrically matched speed. There is not a technical reason why such a clutch would not last 200,000 miles at which point the repair is probably not very expensive.

    Highway number, well we will see in real world testing when it comes out. Even though the transmission would be more efficient, the highway test in epa is low speed. In the real world testing a camry at 75mph is more efficient than a fusion at 75 mph (car and driver test) despite the epa giving the fusion the advantage. The prius low drag gives it an advantage. At 75 mph the transmission efficiency differences should be minor compared to ice efficiency and drag. At 70+mph this architecture could be the midsize sedan champ. At 90mph it may beat the prius ;-)
     
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  18. Sergiospl

    Sergiospl Senior Member

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    2014 Honda Accord Hybrid Has No Transmission: How It Works
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  20. cycledrum

    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    Hmmmmm .... vety interestink that it gets a 50 MPG city rating .... but hopefully not schtupit.

    ------------------------------------------

    :ROFLMAO: a 3,550 lb hybrid car with 196 total HP that gets 50 MPG city??? I'll believe it when I see it .... :ROFLMAO:

    Oh what fun it is to play a Mr. Doubting Thomas :D

    (meanwhile mr. Prius just clocked a 55 mpg actual tank w/o hyper'ing of any sort but again displayed its sort of crapbox to be in and drive character .... can't anybody build a truly great hybrid or any advanced technology car ... please .... ??? I don't see one on the market ... anywhere ... please ... I'm begging!! )



    ------------------------

    btw, help me message the genius on fuelly whose got his 28 mpg 2014 (3) Accord listed as the hybrid :rolleyes:
     
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