Honda to Reassess Hybrid Demand After Accord

Actually, reading this, I half wondered if this meant Honda was going to get out of the hybrid market. Or, at least, had been considering it before the gas prices went up.

The Insight never sold that well; and the Civic Hybrid has been coming in 2nd to the '04 Prius. (Though it might have been doing better against the Prius Classic -- I don't remember.)

 

Hey, don't knock it. That's what first drew me in to actually take a look at the '04 Prius. When I read that Toyota had managed to make it bigger, with better mileage and better performance I just had to see for myself. I still get a kick out of occasionally surprising someone off the line at the stoplight yet I'm still averaging a little better than 50mpg. What a country! :mrgreen:

 

I agree Danny. There has to be a bigger draw than "the same car only it gets 50% better mileage and you pay $2500 more for it". At $2/gal and 15K miles/year you need a lot of years to recover that difference. Most people have to consider their wallet first, other things second. I'm hoping Toyota can mainstream the hybrid parts such that they can put them in any vehicle for the same price, then dump the non hybrid versions. Thus we are all better off because there is substantialy less gas being burned.

 

I'm not surprised Honda didn't sell a lot of Insights, and I doubt they are either. I don't think that was the intent of the car. More in line with testing the hybrid technology with those most interested in what it has to offer - mpg and emissions.
It just isn't practical for a lot of people. Most who buy a 2 seater want a sports car, not a commuter. When your best mpg vehicle only carries 2, you can't take the family on those trips where 60 mpg vs 25 would be great. And, at $20K plus, it isn't a cheap ride to work. I'm sure for some it is a GREAT car. It doesn't have the distance and speed limitations of full electrics. If you are a 1 or 2 person family, no problem Could my family of 4 use it? Yeah, the 3 days a week when my wife doesn't do the morning "kid carting" with me covering the afternoon. But I have neither the driveway space nor the spare cash to have a 3rd car that would save me (and the environment) 120 gallons of gas a year to commute to work assuming I could use it every day (which I couldn't).

The 2004 Prius beats both the classic and the Honda Civic Hybrid on most counts. Other than rear seat headroom, I see no reason to even consider the other 2 vehicles. They have smaller interiors, have no way to expand the trunk into the passenger space and get lower MPGs. The 2004 would have to be more expensive than the others to balance its strengths and it isn't.

 

Except that the current V6 Accord has more than enough power than most anyone actually NEEDS and the hybrid won't be any bigger from the passenger/cargo POV. It remains to be seen exactly what "the mileage of a 4 cylinder" means on the road. How many people are going to pay a premium for the same car that gets somewhat better mileage?

I think it would make more sense for Honda to put the hybrid in the standard 4 cylinder Accord giving it a boost in both power and mpg.
Maybe you can tow something with the V6 you can't with the 4 and perhaps a hybrid in the standard 4 could match that, thus eliminating any need to go up to the V6

Just for grins, I road tested my low powered '95 Odyssey - 0-35 mph at 'hard off the line' and at 'what I and most everyone else actually do'. Came up with something over 5 seconds for a 'stand on it' start (OK a LOT of cars would be at 45 by then and some at 60 or more). The 'normal' start was about 10 seconds. You can get your Prius to 60 in that time, but do you ever need to do it? Maybe, if you travel I-5 with the signals at the top of the ramp and traffic at 65+ mph. But I drove that in my rental 2003 Prius last July and you know what? I got into traffic without being killed or feeling like I was about to be.

 

Exactly. For the people who want a hybrid car because of (a) gas mileage or (B) eco-reasons, Honda's mild-hybrid system is going to be less appealing than Toyota's HSD technology. For people who aren't interested in hybrid technology -- why would they spend the extra money for a (relatively) mild gas mileage increase?

It's a pity; I have a very high regard for Honda engineering. As Tempus points out, maybe their best bet (market-wise) is to go with diesel. That, or license Toyota hybrid technology.

 

Yep. The same scenario continues to recur in my mind:

Buyer walks into showroom and is faced with two alternatives:

1) Highlander Hybrid at MSRP (or better) with a 6-12 month wait.

2) Non-hybrid Highlander available for immediate delivery at a (probably substantial) discount off MSRP.


Not real compelling considering the hybrid models will be priced $3-4k higher than their non-hybrid counterparts based on MSRP. Even less so when the non-hybrid models are immediately available and being discounted.

 

The IMA technology of Honda has always struck me as backwards from the way a useful hybrid system should work. The Civic is also a very small and dated design - reliable,yes...interesting,no. I think Honda realizes that Toyota completely kicked their butt in the Hybrid development area and they may be looking to move into something else. I don't think they would EVER consider a licensing agreement with Toyota since they are bitter rivals. One of my neighbors has a son who works for Honda in Marysville, OH and he says that they consider Toyota as their ONLY real competition.

 

I've always used the word "limited". IMA provides no way to take a next step. There isn't any method of extending the electric abilities of a system that is designed to only assist.

Honda thought sales of IMA equipped systems for years, in a country obsessed with consumption, would be a natural fit. They simply didn't realize the automotive evolution would actually turn into a revolution. The need to take the next step is approaching much faster than they planned on.

Who would have ever thought a hybrid would be deemed "Car of the Year" so soon? (Well... I did. But you get the point.)

Honda will obviously want to remain competitive. Being willing to change is a good thing. And being upfront about the need to change is even better.

The fact that HSD has all kinds of potential already built into the design is great. It "inspired" Ford. Perhaps Honda will go down the same path. If not, as long as they keep trying all is fine.

I'm quite curious what the next few years will bring. The remaining misconceptions will be proven false, just by current Prius owner continuing to drive. Then everyone will begin demanding hybrids, not just the elite few like now.

Change is the only thing you can really plan on.

 

As you say, Toyota was thinking ahead with the HSD: much of the technology that goes into their hybrid development program will be needed for efficient use of a hydrogen fuel cell automobile.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Wanted to give you props for that -- I never would have believed it, either.

 

I don't totally agree. While still not as eco friendly as HSD, improving battery technology/size/capacity can allow for the ICE to get smaller, but maintain overall HP with a greater percentage of the total power coming from the electric side. That is MY concept of a valuable hybrid design. Or, as in the case of the Accord V6 hybrid, more power with the same size ICE (but I still think it is overkill in the V6). Wouldn't it be nice for people with the need, to be able to buy a 4 cyl hybrid but still have the towing capacity of a 6 cyl?
Not being a battery/electric motor designer/scientist I don't know where all this goes but if a battery can be designed with enough capacity in a small enough form, and an electric motor with enough HP perhaps we can go back to the hybrids of the 19th century - ICE is nothing more than an electrical generator for the traction battery. Always runs at peak performance and you don't need all the linkage between it, the electric motor and the drive train. Actually, I don't know why that can't be done with the more recent all electric vehicles.

 

There are plenty of Toyota dealers in Puerto Rico and everyone has 1-3 Prii available for immediate delivery. There are also plenty of Honda dealers but none has a hybrid car for sale; you have to special-order it and wait weeks for its delivery.