How Audi, BMW & Mercedes plan to compete with Tesla

Sold mainly to the French Government. Renault offer a small hatchback called the Zoe and a small electric van. Both are very popular in France and should be here too, but Renault insist on renting the HV battery at a minimum of £77($123) a month, each and every month for as long as you own the vehicle. That might be ok when the car is new, but would anyone pay that when the car is 7 years old? 15 years old?

Official: Renault Says 'No' To Battery Purchase For Zoe Electric Car

Battery Hire Explained - Z.E. Battery - ZOE - Renault Cars - Renault UK

Fleet operators here have asked Renault UK to offer the option of buying the car in full as leasing the battery causes all sorts of tax, ownership and insurance problems, but Renault just won't. They're sticking to battery leasing come what may, even if it means barely any sales.

RENAULT ZOE (model family) - How Many Left?

Renault Zoe sales: 2013 = 361, 2014 = 215.

Shame as a nice looking car that would sell were it not for the lease;

 

zoe #10 sold 15,000 so far and #9 kangoo also sold 15,000.

 

Break that down into countries.

In the UK sales are shocking. In Norway where you can buy the full car and not lease the battery sales are good and in France sales are amazing due to the buying power of the French Government.

Why can Norwegians buy the full car but we can't? Typical French stubbornness. They've made their decision and they're sticking to it come what may. You try getting an insurance quote for the Zoe in the UK that reflects the full vehicle value as you're responsible for the HV battery replacement cost. It's a minefield as you own part of the car and someone else the other which is different to a personal lease or hire purchase. Fleet operators here have been calling for Renault to change their minds, but they just won't. Guess they don't really want to sell any?

This article sums it up well;

CAP warns Renault against battery lease for EVs

According to the automotive information firm, ‘another nail in the coffin’ is that Benefit in Kind rules see the Renault ZOE’s battery replacement cost added to the car’s list price for P11D purposes.

CAP has been in discussion with Renault for several years over the issue of forecasting used values for a vehicle for which the battery is leased separately from the car. The company’s forecasters have maintained that it is not possible to forecast the value of a vehicle with no intrinsic source of power – likening it to forecasting the value of a conventional car with no engine.

You end up paying tax on the full cost of the vehicle despite only paying for the 'shell' and then leasing the battery. Complete nightmare.

 

interesting that some pontificators are calling for leaf battery lease. i've never thought about the insurance ramifications. i wonder what tesla has in mind for their battery change out stations? did that guy in israel give up?

 

The big supplier problem has been panasonic for battery cells. Tesla is looking at least 5 years out. Panasonic should be able to supply enough batteries next year to make 60,000 cars and suvs(S&X), and 100,000 in 2016, and after that even more with gigafactory which promises sub $200/kwh batteries. They are expanding geographially now because the car sells better if people see it. To get to that 3x growth in 2016 they want to be in as many markets as possible. From 2016 they will try to add 2 more models the more mainstream 3 and anouther roadster to get 5x growth by 2020.

They don't need the UK or Germany, but as you have said mercedes sells a lot of S class in london, tesla would like to have it or its partner mercedes through market competition make those at least plug-in cars.

 

Not just London. I live 200 miles from London and those cars I quoted are all over; common as. There's more to life than London just as there's more to the US than New York.

I think Musk has his head screwed on right and the gigafactory will be a game changer. Looking forward to following developments with interest.

 

guy in Israel = Better Place and yes they went out of business, bankrupt, he gave up.

Tesla is building the first battery swap station but I think people hear "battery swap" and think of it as a primary way to recharge. I think Tesla's battery swap will be a random use luxury option for those in an extreme hurry and a vending machine for battery upgrades. I doubt the average user will ever stop to use it even once.

 

sure, 2-300 miles is enough for most people.

 

The model for battery swap of small batteries requires a lot of cars. Only 1000 people wanted those renault in isreal. Better place declared bankrupcy and was sold off.

The main driver of tesla's battery swap is carb's zev mandate which was rewritten last year to not give any fast refueling bonus for battry swap, and fast refuel credits were increased for fuel cells. Tesla is going ahead to prove the tech, but I doubt they will roll it out to many locations if they don't get bonus credits or see demand. Certainly in the state of california tesla could offer battery swap much cheaper and faster than tax payers can build hydrogen fueling stations. I think tesla wants the tech available for the next change of carb rules.

 

Battery swap just seems crazy. How much do batteries cost? You have to keep them in stock, all charged up. What if a new model has a slightly different design? You have to keep a stock of those too? What if the battery you swap for is in worse condition than the one you got rid of?

Nah, it's a crazy idea. It works well for camping gas bottles but nothing else.

 

+1

Oh I know, I was thinking london because the pollution may drive people with the money for an S class to cars without tailpipe emissions.

Yep, I think they are going to be fine losing money trying to sell in englad just to get some cars on the road and word of mouth. If the gigafactory and model 3 work out, the UK will be a profitable place for tesla.

 

The better place model, yes, had all those problems. They are out of busniness.

Tesla battery swap, well if you are on a long trip, it could work this way. You swap back your original recharged pack on the way back home. You get charged for wear and tear on the tesla packs used during the trip which isn't much. Problems come in when you don't swap back. There has to be a prorating so that you swap for a better pack and pay more or a worse pack and get some money back. Then you go back and swap a year or two later. Tough figuring out that business model.

It seems nicer than spending $2M a pop on hydroen fueling stations, but yes it doesn't seem like a good idea unless the government is requiring that fast refuel.

 

Smart offers a battery lease option, which includes annual inspection and replacement in case of capacity loss. I think it is a reasonable way of getting those with battery life concerns to take a look, but long term I think it will disappear.

With Tesla, you would be charged for the battery, minus the value of yours, if you didn't return to the station and swap back your battery.

 

Smart offer the OPTION of battery lease as well as the option to buy outright. Nissan with the Leaf offer the option of both too and the take up is 80% purchase in full against 20% hv battery lease.

Renault don't give the option. It's lease or nothing. If Nissans experience is anything to go by, Renault could increase sales by 80% if they offered the option to buy outright. But they're stubborn and French and BMW, Nissan, Smart, Peugeot, Citroen, Tesla, Ford, VW and Mitsubishi all offer cars you can buy in full.

 

Holy mackerel, did anyone get hurt in that wreck?

 

this convinces me that, although many companies are making ev's, not many really want to sell them in quantity.

 

Audi, BMW and Mercedes have history and heritage to help their sales, so they can start with the i3, and Mercedes Electric (suv) in the USA, as people will buy anything (crap or ugly) that has the roundel or silver star on it! Tesla is a new brand with no heritage.....so it is amazing how well they are doing. Sort a like when Toyota launched Lexus, it had no heritage, but sold well, and we all know how this turned out for Toyota.

 

I think you need to think in terms of plug-in instead of bev. BEV is rather a red herring term that people that are against electrification like to put up as a straw man. Unfortunately some at CARB and the fuel cell lobby (big oil, plug big auto, plug CARB, plus CEC) seem to still want fcv instead of plug-ins so the epicenter of this fight is in california.

All of the performance car lines except lexus want plug-ins and are charging ahead. This is the entire vw group (porsche, lamborgini, audi, and even vw), bmw, mercedes, tesla, cadilac, ferarri, bugatti, etc.

For more high volume vehicles gm, nissan, mitsubishi, and vw are all ready for the tech, and making it happen. Ford is neutral doing enough that it can ramp up quickly if it catches on, hyundai/kia also seem to be here.

Fiat, honda, toyota don't want them to sell in quantity. I would say they are in the minority. for the US, chinese, and european markets. I expect sales from the other companies will end up bringing honda and toyota along. This may be enough of an obstacle in the Japanese car market though. The Japanese market is small compared to the chinese and US markets.

 

Tesla made it's first delivery to the UK on June 7. I suspect much of the delay was due to it being a RHD market.

GC, Tesla will be hiring for its sales and service centers.

As a percentage of industry sales I'm sure Tesla's portion is lost in the rounding. The only way you'll see some in NJ is to go to supercharger or service center.

 

That's where we differ. Lexus in the UK never really took off. They sell a few but they're not a player. People are badge whores here. If it's not a BMW, Audi or Merc then it's just not a flash car.