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How the American worker-consumer caused the loss of jobs at GM...

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Georgina Rudkus, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    Remember “too big to fail” touted by the President a few years ago?
     
  2. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Unions are a whooooooole different part of this discussion, and I say this as a dues paying member of a labor union.
    As despicable as they are, labor unions are not 'the problem' with GM, but rather just one of a spectrum of problems that they face in manufacturing a global product.

    "Paying people to stay home" isn't a unionized company thing, it's a big company thing.
    This is because large corporations have to have certain benefits if they are going to attract and maintain a quality work force.
    Ask Elon. Tesla is not a union shop, but my Spidey sense tells me that they offer a benefits package to their work force that's at least comparable to other large corporations.....and because they operate in Caly, one presumes that certain trifling labor laws are applicable.
    Even in union shops, "paying people to stay home" pretty much does not happen these days....and as I type this, I can name at least two of our work force that are out on long term benefits from just my little corner of our company.

    Germany and Japan does not have any problem building new cars and trucks in new factories in underdeveloped places like Mississippi and Alabama, AND offering big league benefits AND building a quality product....so it's not a lack of local talent...or overregulation from dot.gov, or lack of demand for new automobiles.

    It 'could just be' that GM is joining companies like Sears, Eastman Kodak, IBM and Xerox in the large corporate dumpster because they failed to evolve......or (like Pan Am) were just exceedingly unlucky.
    Ask any submariner.
    If you get to pick between 'good' and 'lucky'....pick LUCKY.
    Every time!

    It doesn't just happen here....ask Nokia, Toshiba, Hitachi, and Sony why THEY are on life support.....if, in fact, they will admit to it.
    I cannot speak for Finland, and I won't even PRETEND that I understand Japanese consumers, but I suspect that some of their flagship companies failed NOT because it was their consumers fault.....or those lousy government regulators.....or the stinkin unions or their fat, lazy, workers.

    Costumers are a "what have you done for me lately?" bunch.
    Yeah......brand loyalty will carry you a long way, which is why (IMHO) Toyota isn't in more trouble than they are given the tremendous competition that they're facing from Korea and (coming soon!) China.

    GM?
    I have three of them....and I might buy a fourth if Volts go on sale for the right price.
    But that's ME.
    If I lived in California I'd probably be driving something different....or not driving at all given my <$100,000 salary.
    If I lived in Bastan....It would probably be something else.
    Really big companies have to respond to a global market, with a global product using a global supply chain.
    Sometimes the only thing that is local for a specific product are the people who are watching the robots put it together and given the width and depth of global communications......THAT is changing as well!!!

    Welcome to 2020!
    Those quaint old Mom and Apple Pie commercials might have some remaining emotional inertia, but to quote Freedman, the world is getting hotter, flatter, and more crowded.

    If you think that you owe any allegiance to GM...or GE because you both have the same color flag fluttering in your front yard, you are dead a** wrong!
    MY COUNTRY deserves (and should demand!) products that are made by companies that are smart, adaptable, tough....or a little something that we used to call COMPETITIVE waaaaaaaaaay back in a murky, far distant past before participation trophies, and emotional support peacocks.
    Companies CAN BE both competitive AND successful AND socially responsible.

    Ask Apple.
    Ask Tesla.
    Ask Starbucks.

    ASK this of GM.
    Or?
    Letum wither on the vine and be replaced by somebody.....maybe like Tesla.

    Markets respond.

    ....I've said it before.
    I would have let them go under in 08.
    I'll let them do it in 19.

    This is NOT a consumer thing.....IMHO.
     
    #42 ETC(SS), Dec 7, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018
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  3. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    On another note, what happened to the WWII Era of "The Arsenal of Democracy" when the auto industry switched from producing cars to guns, tanks and airplanes?

    GM apparently failed to lean a lesson from its own history. Their plants produced "niched" models, when more modern and future plants are designed to adeptly switch to SUV's and trucks or vice versa. The engineers of the future Jeep plant can learn from this issue. If they don't, they will likely set themselves up to be a future GM. History often repeats itself for those who doesn't learn from it.
     
  4. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Be careful counting on history to repeat itself.
    Sam said that it really doesn't repeat itself...but rather it just rhymes.
    In navigation, one looks back over a plot to see where they have been ONLY....well...."mostly" because it's useful in determining something that mariners call 'set and drift'.....which is a fancy way of expressing changing currents affecting your course towards your intended destination.

    This is useful, but in 2020, I want a GPS, a radar, and an autopilot!

    I can still do the plot, label, and DR thing - but I've seen examples of an exquisitely trained and lavishly equipped navigation TEAM putting a ship in harms way because they were too busy plotting and dotting and not concerned with what's going on outside, out in front of the bow.
    The best way to avoid an obsticle is to start kicking rudder BEFORE you get there.
    Once you hit the rock.....the only thing the plot is good for is telling your inquisitors why it happened.

    GM might be doing collision avoidance.....or....their piloting team might be arguing over the anchor pool.

    Not.
    My.
    Problem.....
     
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  5. ALS

    ALS Active Member

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    The manufactures were bullied into creating something called a Job Bank. The laid off workers collected full pay and benefits while they sat at a community center for the day.
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Perhaps because their employees don't feel the need to unionize.

    A vote to unionize was up at a Nissan plant, and Nissan spent a lot of money to advertise against it.
    Unions and Management have an adversarial relationship in America. It isn't that way in other countries. Nissan is likely happy working with the union in Japan.

    Manufacturing was much different back then, with a lot of human labor. Now there is a lot of robots and specialized equipment. It is easier to switch a factory line when the most you have to do is retrain people, instead moving equipment around and reprogramming robots. Such a line is also more expensive to run with all those people.

    Note that modern factories are capable of switching. GM isn't closing these plants because they can't switch what is made at them. They could switch the Cruze line to making Colorados if they wanted to. They are closing them do to under utilization. The individual plants weren't making enough money to justify the overhead of keeping the plant open. Making Colorados won't save it if it is making the same number of units as when it was making Cruzes. Some of the plants were for parts that are being used in models not effected by factory closings.
     
  7. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    The Cars.com 2018 American-Made Index

    1. Jeep Cherokee: Belvidere, Ill.

    2. Honda Odyssey: Lincoln, Ala.

    3. Honda Ridgeline: Lincoln, Ala.

    4. Ford Taurus: Chicago

    5. Chevrolet Volt: Detroit

    6. Honda Pilot: Lincoln, Ala.

    7. Acura MDX: East Liberty, Ohio

    8. Ford Explorer: Chicago

    9. Ford F-150: Claycomo, Mo., and Dearborn, Mich.

    10. Chevrolet Corvette: Bowling Green, Ky.

    Back when we bought my wife's car, the 84% content Acura made in KY was the most US content car sold. She loves it, I don't. Big pig. But reliable.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    my partner loved his mdx too. and last time he bought one, they're discounting the dickens out of them. he said the dealer lot was a sea of mdx's.

    then he traded for an x1, and has regretted it ever since.
     
  9. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

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    Underutilization seems to the key. I don't know how GM secures the most expensive cost for ramping up production. That has be the cost of the ultra expensive dies used to stamp out the body parts of a model. If GM outsources the stamping of these parts, what is the capacity of the supplier to provide the parts? The start-up cost of an additional set of dies might be cost prohibitive, especially if they might become surplus in the future due to diminishing demand or generational model design change. So, it is not an easy cost-benefit analysis.
     
  10. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    Bottom line...US cars is the same class can not compete with Honda and Toyota for the quality, reliability and price. You can blame everyone you want, but the consumer makes the choice of what they buy...and U.S. DDs don't hold a candle to that competition.
     
  11. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    You realize many Hondas & Toyotas are made in The US & Canada, right?
     
  12. frodoz737

    frodoz737 Top Wrench

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    But they are made to Honda and Toyota's standards. In fairness, both Prii I've owned...100% Made in Japan. Our RAV4 HV...100% Made in Japan. The 2018 Tacoma...made in Baja. I would not replace any one of them for a Chevy, Ford or Chrysler. Remember, I turn a wrench for a living and see/work on them from the inside out. Most cars will make 2-3 years without major problems, but if you want a daily driver to last cost effectively past your lease or 5 year note...buy a Honda or Toyota...even if it's made in Georgia.
     
  13. ALS

    ALS Active Member

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    My buddy (former Volvo Tech 25-30 years) has his own independent shop and he's been saying for a few years, Toyota and Subaru's are the best for reliability.
     
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  14. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    Of note:
    My brother-in-law still has not killed our made in the USA 1996 Camry.
    My 2000 Tundra (a first year model) made in the USA and my 2008 Corolla made in Canada are still hanging in there with no major issues.
     
    #54 Prodigyplace, Dec 9, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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