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Hubble in trouble

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jun 17, 2021.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    posto duplicado
     
  2. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Here is a description of current capabilities of radio astronomy:

    Technology | Event Horizon Telescope

    Towards the end it considers imaging the black hole central to our galaxy. Goal is 10 micro arc seconds. :eek:

    Optical astronomy is 3 orders of magnitude coarser than that and that gap may persist. I wish we had a real astronomer here to teach about what work at what wavelengths might reveal what.

    ==
    If any aspect of earth human technology draws attention from other galactic civilizations (if they do exist), it will be this. Not cars and not medicine. Sorry, guys.
     
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  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    JWST is now intended to launch Dec 18. Very long delayed and up budgeted. It will bring Hubble-scale resolution to infrared, and is larger to collect more photons. Photons are not so abundant in infrared, especially from exo planets, that optimists hope to see with it. Along with galaxies very far away a long time ago. Cue theme music.

    It is intended to survive rigors of launch, unfold, and take its station more than a million km from earth. Perhaps during its service life it will become possible to go there and resupply fuel required for 'station keeping'.

    Our earlier discussion here about angular resolution (could be in milli arc seconds) sent me back to possibly accurate math. Looking out from earth (or JWST's Lagrange point), the whole sky (observable universe) can be seen as a beach ball with observer in the center. If a 'pixel' spans 40 milli arc seconds, there are about 2 X 10^15 pixels to observe. That is a very large number, and target priorities will be for astronomers to contest after it comes alive. Does one JWST image cover 2 million pixels? Probably something like that, which still leaves a billion decisions about where to look. It promises to be quite an adventure.

    Finally it will only be from good luck during its energetic departure, and different luck later, for JWST to approach Hubble's 3-decade run.

    A plucky not-yet-interstellar civilization did this, even with only fire to push it out! Other interstellar civilizations might notice in a benevolent way. Or have they already? Bwa ha ha.
     
  5. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    It looks like 10 simultaneous 4.1 Mpix sensors, for a total of 41 Mpix: https://www.stsci.edu/jwst/instrumentation/imaging-modes


    "MIRI provides broad-band imaging at the longest wavelengths in nine filters from 5.6 to 25.5 μm. MIRI imaging has a field of view of 74”x113”, with a pixel scale of 0.11".


    NIRCam imaging has two parallel modules, each with a field of view of 2.2’x2.2’, and separated by a ~44” gap. Within each module, the light is split by a dichroic and sent to a short-wavelength (SW, 0.6-2.3 μm) and a long-wavelength (LW, 2.4-5 μm) channel. Each SW module is split into 4 separate detectors. In total, NIRCam images simultaneously with ten 2040x2040 detectors, for a total of more than 41 million pixels. The short-wavelength channel has a pixel scale of ~0.031", which Nyquist-samples a point source at 2 μm. The long-wavelength channel has a pixel scale of ~0.063". Each channel has a comprehensive selection of wide-, medium-, and narrow-band filters.


    NIRISS is capable of imaging from 0.8 to 5 μm with a field of view of 2.2’x2.2’. It uses a spare filter set from NIRCam and has a pixel scale of 0.065" per pixel, which matches the sampling of the NIRCam long-wavelength channel. In general, NIRCam is the camera of choice for near-infrared imaging with JWST, since it has twice the field of view of NIRISS and obtains SW and LW images simultaneously. However, used in parallel with NIRCam, NIRISS imaging can increase the field-of-view and efficiency of near-infrared imaging."
    upload_2021-9-22_23-9-56.png
     
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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  7. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  8. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    I’m more worried about the first 30 minutes….but yeah.

    I take their point.
    Pleasantly surprised that they haven’t had to change JWST’s initials…….yet.
     
  9. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    The greatest red shift of any stars should be a direct function of the Universe's age when the first stars formed. But I haven't mentally absorbed all the pieces of cosmological (vs just speed, they are different) red shift, so don't have a proper translation between z / speed / age / distance.

    The cosmic microwave background radiation, currently at 2.7K, would have been white light when it was emitted, so it has a red shift on the order of 1000.
     
  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    JWST launch delay until Dec 25

    Launch of Webb telescope delayed to Christmas morning – Spaceflight Now

    Which also says launch window is only 32 minutes 'wide'. It perplexes me that there is only 1/48 of an earth rotation to shoot at L2. Fuel supply limitation? Dun no.

    JWST should fairly have its own thread here. Let us start that after its outgoing looks nominal. Don't jinx the thing.
     
  12. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    I stumbled upon a "launch window trade analysis" for mid 2018 through 2019. Presumably a current version would have very many similarities:

    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20160001318/downloads/20160001318.pdf

    I haven't yet looked close enough to decide if I might ever be able to sufficiently understand it. At first glance, launch windows vary from about 5 minutes to just under 2 hours.

    "The stray light requirement protects the JWST instruments from solar, lunar and Earth stray light."

    upload_2021-12-22_19-19-14.png
     
    #72 fuzzy1, Dec 22, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2021
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Following post#70 this

    What do redshifts tell astronomers? | Astronomy Essentials | EarthSky.

    Teaches more than I know :)

    Except for the other tiny extreme of spectral shifts. Way out yonder, spectra are reddened a lot. In Milky Way galaxy local, stellar spectra shifts from big planets orbiting are now detectable at about 10 meters per second star wobble. It requires $uper-accurate $pectro$copy device$ that remain far beyond launchable.

    So, earth-sited telescopes will add to list of exoplanets in this way. JWST in its spare time from deep-space looking might reveal something about exoplanet atmospheres

    ==
    I hope readers here realize that astronomy during your lives has done so much more to change sky looking into sky understanding, than ever before. I mean, dang.
     
  14. Merkey

    Merkey Active Member

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    It's amazing all that we have learned in a short time. I just wonder...will we ever determine the origin of the universe or is it something way beyond our ability to ever know?
     
  15. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Probably not “we.”

    HOWEVER (comma!)
    I have high hopes for those that follow……
     
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  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I suspect it a significant quantum physics effect: It's confirmed: Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations | New Scientist

    Matter is built on flaky foundations. Physicists have now confirmed that the apparently substantial stuff is actually no more than fluctuations in the quantum vacuum.

    The researchers simulated the frantic activity that goes on inside protons and neutrons. These particles provide almost all the mass of ordinary matter.

    Each proton (or neutron) is made of three quarks – but the individual masses of these quarks only add up to about 1% of the proton’s mass. So what accounts for the rest of it?

    Theory says it is created by the force that binds quarks together, called the strong nuclear force. In quantum terms, the strong force is carried by a field of virtual particles called gluons, randomly popping into existence and disappearing again. The energy of these vacuum fluctuations has to be included in the total mass of the proton and neutron.

    In theory, Brownian motion could result in all the air in your room suddenly gathering in a very small volume at one corner. The probability is very, very small but it remains statistically possible. So in an extreme case, a quantum collapse into the original, pre-universe is just the sort of nightmare to keep everyone awake.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. Quantum mechanics, the ghost story of physics. BOOOOO!!!

    <GRINS>

    pps. https://www.livescience.com/65697-einstein-letters-quantum-physics.html
    ...
    Einstein described his "private opinion" of quantum physics in one of the 1945 letters by referencing a phrase that he had already made famous: "God does not play dice with the universe." In the letter, he wrote: "God tirelessly plays dice under laws which he has himself prescribed." This variation clarified his argument that quantum particles must adhere to certain rules that don't change randomly, and that the quantum world required better explanations for particle behavior, according to the item description.
    ...
     
    #76 bwilson4web, Dec 23, 2021
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2021
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  17. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    Naaah. ;)
    I don't spend much time worrying about things that I cannot control, especially if they are statistically very, very VERY unlikely.
     
  18. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    If not noted here before, USD$10 billion to make JWST does not include cost of the Ariane 5 launch; another 0.1 at least. It is, surely, the most expensive single (uninhabited) space exploration by the home team. In less than 9 hours that adventure begins.

    It is Christmas eve for many readers and as such they had better be doing something other than reading here! For those in the 'doing' loop, whose this-year Christmas has been altered uniquely, I can only wish the best.

    Dear Santa, please make this thing work. If it does not, a very long time will pass before a replacement would be built.
     
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  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Amen bro, amen. If it fails, Tesla will have to send the replacement within two years on an unplanned StarShip mission.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Launch success and no problems have been reported with the unfoldings so far. The most active play-by-play site may be:

    https://jwst.nasa.gov/content/webbLaunch/whereIsWebb.html

    although it does not appear to mention trajectory 'burns' on the way to L2. Several other satellites are already looping around L2 but I have not seen a complete list. Loops seem to be on the scale of 1 kilometer.

    The TL;DR is it will take about a month to arrive, 5 more months to get primary mirror(s) aligned and cold, and then the photo ops begin.