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Human energy use (internal)

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, May 8, 2016.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    This is not about burning fossil fuels or renerables. More about calories than kilowatts (although the two are inter convertible): A link:

    Humans Paid for Bigger Brains With Gas-Guzzling Bodies - The Atlantic

    Seems well written. It links back to two Pontzer et al. articles, which you are excused for not reading unless the word 'paywall' is invoked.

    For clarity replace this sentence
    "We are a more calorific diet of tubers and meat."
    with
    "We ate a more calorific diet of tubers and meat."
    Ed Yong gets forgiven for 'one letter over on the keyboard' but Atlantic editors did not get past my beady eyes :)

    If you need it even shorter. Human brain is an unusually large energy consumer. We managed it not by cutting back other systems, but by eating more. I suppose this is correct, bu but frankly they they had me with 'double-labeled stable isotope analysis' :)

    Also added more body fat, 'cause the brain never sleeps (seriously it does not) and that fire needs to be kept going even if the next meal is some ways off.

    +++
    How much intake upgrading depended on making fires is a separate, related issue. I happen to think, a lot. Certainly once you have large local population densities linked to agriculture, it's time to learn to cook.

    +++
    Bigger brains there are; elephants and most whales at least. I am not sure that their energy usage has been deeply studied.
     
  2. KennyGS

    KennyGS Senior Member

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    "Compared to other apes, Pontzer found that humans have much more body fat—23 to 41 percent compared to just 14 to 15 percent in gorillas and 8 to 9 percent in chimps."

    There's no way to justify having 23-41% body fat. Most people I see are in horrible physical shape. Little muscle mass, and eating too many calories (poor diet).

    IMO, this is a ridiculous comparison.
     
  3. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    I agree that aspect is weak, linked with current human %fat, which may mean little or nothing in relation to paleo humans.

    For current humans excepting about 2 billions on the bottom rungs of the ladder, low %fat correlates with longevity.. At the other extreme, high %fat correlates with late-life killers. Paleo bones suggest that paleo humans did not generally live to an age when those killers kick in (also they would have been post reproductive). We are at a loss to identify evolutionary pressure against fatties.

    Perhaps the authors would have done better by emphasizing that there were no others 'paleos' who moved as far as hominids in search of food. Fat does not fossilize, so I think relevant numbers might never be known.

    Zoos of the world (I call them prisons for the innocent) have large research-able primate populations. There are 'ethics committees' standing in the way of feeding primates high-fat, high-sugar diets, just to see how the inmates bulk up. I think we could set this issue aside and consider authors' other, brain-oriented ideas.
     
    #3 tochatihu, May 9, 2016
    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I think this type of thinking does a big disservice to actual understanding of evolutionary biology and relative physiology. Its pop science of the reality tv show type, that may actually detract from understanding in its plea for attention.

    Decent through modification does not select for the most efficient creatures. The alpha species is always less efficient than other species, why would it be more efficient. Traits are selected for by if they are more likely to produce viable offspring, not if they are efficient. The jellyfish is one of the most efficient animals, if the thesis was correct humans would have evolved toward the jellyfish.

    The fattest mammal, I believe is a species of whale. The insulating nature of the fat allows it to use less energy in cold waters and the low density allows it to be more buoyant.

    animals are not cars. evolution selects for efficiency in times of distress. A bigger brain allows survival with times of distress (farming, irrigation, fire, shelter), which means there is more pressure for creativity and sexual selection than efficiency in humans.

    With diseases of plenty more apt to kill than starvation with modern humans, perhaps being less efficient means it is easier to survive feast and famine cycles also adding to suitability to produce viable offspring.
     
  5. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    As weight goes up its pretty obvious. Heavier you are the slower you probably run. Fast running is related to both outrunning preditors, and running fast enough to catch prey, along with some aspects of sexual selection (being too heavy may reduce ability to mate.) With bicycles and horses and guns the outrunning prey and preditors is removed, but probably not by evolution. Now sexual selection is number one motivator.
     
  6. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Being fat could have been good for attracting mates; it implied you were good at securing extra food.

    On the running tangent, humans might not have to out run predators or prey, but out last them. The ability to sweat all over means we could keep going when the furry critters over heated. Our big butts are the result of our ancestors running chops.
     
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  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    finally, my obesity pays off.
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    You actually looking for more mates?
     
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  10. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    These quotes @4 are giving me some trouble

    "Decent through modification does not select for the most efficient creatures. The alpha species is always less efficient than other species, why would it be more efficient. Traits are selected for by if they are more likely to produce viable offspring, not if they are efficient."

    "evolution selects for efficiency in times of distress"

    First is an unsupported declaration and one (maybe two) false paradoxes. The second contradicts the first.

    Energy efficiency can mean many things, ideally a writer intends a specific meaning, and reveals it.

    I have looked around for a general-level treatment of resources in the context of evolutionary fitness landscapes, but as yet have no satisfactory link.

    In jr. high school one very obese fellow could outrun me. Perhaps some psychological scars never heal and could my vision on this topic. :eek:
     
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  11. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    With mechanical transportation devices it seems simple to define energy efficiency. So many ton-kilometers per so much fuel energy. Of course it could be more complicated by including travel time or surface elevation changes. That sort of thing used to be done a lot in PriusChat and related websites.

    Move into biology and it is more complicated because there are more terms that a writer may wish to include. Or optimize. Nothing at all wrong with that, if done explicitly. But a declaration that energy efficiency has nothing to do with reproductive success does not seem a good beginning.

    There is a substantial literature on how energy efficiency (explicitly defined) has been optimized by evolution. However I have not found a general review paper that I'd try to 'sell' here.

    +++
    Of biological systems (apparently) optimized by evolution my favorite example is countercurrent circulation. It occurs very widely, and apparently because the 'toolkit' of precursor structures is so often available. Years ago when I learned that the NHW20 traction battery electrodes were redesigned as countercurrent circulation, it was a giddy moment to say the least.

    The 100 to 200 watts continuously produced as heat by the human brain requires a 'radiator' which is your sinuses. Another countercurrent circulation. Yet it could be seen as a kludge because so susceptible to bacterial and viral infection.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The first is really one of the principals of evolutionary biology. It is supported by decades of study of various creatures. The second in no way contradicts the first. When we have long periods of time of distress, famines, etc, we find fossils of pygmy creatures. one day as we understand the mechanism of modification (dna mutation) we may understand more.
    I know that the writer you quoted did have a specific meaning, caloric intake per period per size (probably weight). Unforutnatley he put up a straw man that somehow the evolutionary step of a bigger brain should be conteracted by some reduced calery expendeture. Certainly we can set up the null hypotesis and find the author's of this study are correct, but I don't understand why similar caloric efficiency would be the main theory. It most definitely was not when I was in school.

    Well here I go to the base definition, the average number of viable offspring each member has during his or her lifetime. That is the only real proven level of evolution. Other fitness measures have been promoted but have not gone through full scrutiny.

    ;-)
     
  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    There may be no difference in our positions, other than definitions of energy efficiency. Hard to tell.

    There is probably something on the subject by one of the Odum brothers - I shall have to look. Those were a couple of stars (in the terrestrial sense).

    In modern times, a famous example is Dutch who had several years of small kids during food-shortage years in the 1940's. Now are the country with the tallest (average) people. I think this has been worked out very well in terms of caloric intake. A next step might be to measure fecundity of a given cohort, over a range of sizes. They have all the data needed for sure. They are Europeans with a penchant for measuring things :)

    This began as a thread on humans. Fine to extend it more broadly, but arguing from this primate to animals or organisms more broadly may not be the best choice. We are an oddity here.

    James Brown (ecologist not musician) went in the other direction and supplies metabolic rules for all biological organisms.
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    I was using the definition from your cited article. I don't know in what way chimpanzies would be less energy efficient than humans, or why that would make human's more fit.

    Small children then big adults in a small country fails the test for anything meaningful in evolutionary biology. This was most likely a matter of gene expression not gene selection as tall children didn't die at a much higher rate. The gene pool also was not closed off genes entered and left holland. Now there may be WWII affects if certain genes were killed in the war as others thrived, but ... that is a different thing. It is theorized that size in mamals rellies on multiple genes, and the evolutionary pressure has to last more than a generation to select for bigger or smaller. Plenty of food in holland has probably selected for bigger, but the human spiecies gene pool has big and small and you will see this as you have traveled.