HV battery repair options advice?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by wddanie, Sep 5, 2017.

  1. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    My 2005 Prius with 200k miles is throwing codes P0A080, P3023, P3024 and I see battery block V13 is 0.5v lower than the other blocks, which are 0.05v of each other (screen shot attached). I am considering these options for repair and wondered what you experienced battery repair experts would recommend?

    1. Would buying a HA Prolong system to recondition and rebalance the battery likely get the block V13 back into sync with the others and provide reliable operation? The $600 price is reasonable and it would not take much of my time to install the wiring harness and recondition the battery.

    2. Replace 0.5v low module with a good used modules I purchased from ebay and tested. Rebalance using a HA Prolong system. I am a good mechanic and have worked with batteries in my job so technically I can handle it. I am concerned if the finished battery will be reliable and I do not have much free time.

    3. Buy a rebuilt or new battery. I saw a Toyota supplied battery from Toyota Parts Direct in Canada for $1936 USD that should be reliable and is reasonably priced. Would Toyota or other battery vendors accept my opened battery if I install the HA Prolong wiring harness or install a replacement used battery module? I'd hate to spend $600 on the HA Prolong and find the battery was unreliable and then have suppliers refuse to take it as a core exchange on a replacement battery.

    I'm between jobs right now so I prefer the cheapest option, but I do not have much time for extensive module swapping since my job search and some elder care duties take much of my free time.

    Please let me know if there are some other options I should consider.

    Thanks for your help,

    Doug
     

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    #1 wddanie, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  2. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Your best option is to buy newer modules and replace all the modules you have. That can run about $1000 from a junk yard or you can get lucky and get it online for less.

    I would not recommend you spend the $600+ on a prolong if you're in between jobs.
     
  3. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    In a word, no. Once a cell is dead (one or more that make up a module), there is no bringing it back.
    One of the two in block 13 definitely needs to be replaced, but the codes also indicate one or both modules in block 14 is suspect too.
    Don't waste your money buying a rebuilt. Your best and most reliable option is new and that price, assuming it is genuine Toyota OEM battery, is a fantastic price for Toyota new, assuming again, that you can get it from Canada to the US. They don't usually freight them, so you might be out of luck with that, unless you figured on a road trip to pick it up. But it is a long way from GA!

    If funds are tight option two might work as long as it was done properly. But for how long and how reliable is a crap shoot.

    See this post I wrote outlining an overview of the process I posted for another similar question in another thread:

    HV battery question | post #2 | PriusChat
     
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  4. stockdaddy

    stockdaddy Member

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    The 0.25v low block doesn't necessarily mean anything. I would drive it around watching cell block 14 and other blocks to see if we can recreate the 1v voltage drop difference during driving.

    While you have the pack apart you can test each module for overall capacity and ability to hold voltage under load but it isn't absolutely mandatory.

    Balancing is overrated, don't get me started on that.
     
  5. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    What is the "1v voltage drop" that you are referring to? My voltage data below shows block v13 is ~0.50v below the others at 16.26v. (I was mistaken saying it was 0.25v difference in my original post). If a cell was dead, wouldn't we expect a larger voltage variation, like 1.2v?

    I will drive it around and get more voltage data. Below is the most recent voltage data

    Battery Block Vol -V01 16.70
    Battery Block Vol -V02 16.76
    Battery Block Vol -V03 16.76
    Battery Block Vol -V04 16.76
    Battery Block Vol -V05 16.76
    Battery Block Vol -V06 16.73
    Battery Block Vol -V07 16.73
    Battery Block Vol -V08 16.74
    Battery Block Vol -V09 16.76
    Battery Block Vol -V10 16.76
    Battery Block Vol -V11 16.74
    Battery Block Vol -V12 16.79
    Battery Block Vol -V13 16.26
    Battery Block Vol -V14 16.74
     
    #5 wddanie, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i like option #2 for a decent mechanic with a 2005 and 200k, who's short on funds. the cars going to be nothing but trouble anyway, might as we'll diy what you can. skip the prolong, and go with a cheap hobby charger.
    all the best!(y)
     
  7. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    Do you have a favorite vendor for the newer gen 3 modules? I see several from a google search listing somewhat tested modules for 35-50$ and a search of used auto part yards selling 2014 batteries for 850 to 1000$, but their condition is unknown.
     
  8. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    If I was to diy, I was thinking about buying a VWR 570 electrophoresis power supply for 150$ to grid charge it, or get a couple of LED power supplies and quickly wire up a bread board like power supply for grid charging. Is there a reason to prefer the hobby charger charging individual modules vs the grid charger doing the entire pack?

    Will opening it up and swapping modules prevent me from later turning it in as a core in case I want to get a new Toyota or a pro rebuilt battery?
     
  9. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

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    Individually charging the modules allows you to measure and record each module's true capacity, as well as fully cycle each module a few times to Frankenstein it. When a pack fails, it is really the best option. And then you can make sure to get other modules in the same range as the other good ones.

    Doing the whole pack at a time is a great maintenance type solution. When everything is already working well together, maintaining it in the pack is much easier.

    Also the danger of doing the whole pack at a time when you have known bad modules, is that the bad modules can get fully charged before the rest of the pack, and they will start getting hot. The rest of the pack is still charging so the overall pack voltage is still low. But that module will be full and just getting hot. In an ideal world, each module would have an active balancer and temperature sensor. But in the Toyota pack there is no individual module balancing and only 3 temperature sensors. When you charge outside of the car, generally you have 0 temperature sensors. The charge profile of a NiMH battery is different in that it relies on the temperature of the module to give feedback on the SOC and alter the charge/discharge characteristics. Very different than your standard lead acid or lithium battery.

    No. As long as all the pieces are there, you will get your core.
     
  10. Paul Schenck

    Paul Schenck Active Member

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    I just did option 2 on my 430K 2005 last week. It took 4 hours. And even in Fresno's 100+ it was satisfying.
    Surprised me too that one bad cell would stop the car. I expected, like a flashlight, the cells to wear out evenly. Now that I took it apart, I understand much better, it reminds me of a string of holiday lights, where one goes out and half the string is dead, only the bad cell is like a bottle neck, resisting the flow of power for the entire series and thus generating extra heat.
    It is no wonder Toyota wanted this information coming back to them, to help understand the weakest link in the chain, and how to improve it.
    Now that I've seen it myself I know I made the right choice this time and the $2000 I saved will stay where it is.


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  11. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    If you're going to keep the car long term, you're not really saving just postponing the inevitable because these modules will continue to fail. I gave up after my third. I couldn't afford to have the car down that much waiting for modules to arrive, removal, pack disassembly, charging/balancing, reinstallation, etc., and constant thoughts during an out of town trip of another failure.
     
  12. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Another issue here is reliability.

    You may be right back in there again in a a couple of months. And your car will be down for a few days at a time. Especially if you don't charge/discharge the pack to try to get things in balance.

    By charge/discharging you can mask the difference of the replaced module. Because of course there is no way to get a replacement module that is equally crappy as your existing modules.

    Having the modules be similar is what helps keep the warning lights off.

    Each time you have to go back in and replace a module you will get a little quicker and a little better at it.

    If you have a lot of time on your hands and can deal with a somewhat unreliable car you might be OK.

    If you need to have the car be reliable (like for a job, etc) then it can be a risk.
     
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  13. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    How long did it run until another module failure occurred?
     
  14. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Approx. one year each but I have a grid charger.
     
  15. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    Did you use a hobby charger or a grid charger to get your replacement module synced to the rest of the pack?
     
  16. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Contact member TMR-JWRAP, he should have a complete pack of good modules to sell you. Get it in the mail and replace the ones you have in your car. Then just drive and enjoy your Prius again.

    I'll buy your old modules LOL
     
  17. wddanie

    wddanie Junior Member

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    Thanks for the lead and I will get in touch with him.
     
  18. Paul Schenck

    Paul Schenck Active Member

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    I used my voltmeter, 7.0 volts is 7.0 volts


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  19. Paul Schenck

    Paul Schenck Active Member

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    No, I matched the voltage of the replacement to the others the n the bank @ 7.0volts


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  20. Paul Schenck

    Paul Schenck Active Member

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    Had I not read the article in Forb's magazine my brother sent me about the business model for Prius battery repair I'd have opted for the complete new battery as I did the first time at 280,000 IMG_2237.JPG this made more cents now I'm at 430,000


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