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HV traction batt cell lead nut torque

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by specialtyneed, Sep 25, 2015.

  1. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    Just to be sure does anyone have sound reason to use anything besides the 48 in lbs torque on the Gen 2 HV batt cell terminal lead nuts that I found in the Gen 1 traction batt servicing oem manual PDF I found online from 'yoda?

    We are reinstalling the HV batt soon in our '06 Driftwood Pear Prius front end total $1200 CL buy and just chem cleaned the bus bars, after replacing 4 cells & balanced them.

    SM-G900T ?
     
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  2. JTM2955

    JTM2955 Active Member

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    Man, that is not much torque at all. I would think uniformly tightened nuts would be OK. Maybe if under torqued, they might fall off. Over torqued would cause distortion of the cell itself.

    How did you balance the four cells you replaced? I have heard many different ways to do this, would like to know if yours maybe a better way.
     
  3. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    JTM2955,
    You REALLY do not want to know. I am a master auto tech & avaition A&P tech with avionics installation & troubleshooting training & experience and have tech crew chief level skills & training and have toyed with electronics since I was about 9 and doing things kinda cowboy with a very good understanding of what to watch very closely for is not something I can fully explain here. But IF you are comfortable with the ranges of electricity, heat, chemistry which these HV batts opreate in I can summarize but definately discourage this unless your real freaking good like near ironman good (and not just think you are). This was done in 3 main stages with substages as necessary:
    Prequal: I did not do deep discharging as some include or consider nesessary in conditioning as its IMHO not good practice or safe or good for these type of cells. I will not debate this.
    Pre Req,
    Post dissassy with all leads & busses, tension / heat transfer bars removed & cleaned using a very good VOM volt ohm/ amp meter, read & wrote sharpie reading down to hundreths ie 5,56v on top of cells quickly so meter shunt wont ovrheat or melt. Some meters this is not a problem like mine but keep in mind that those cells are very high charrge & discharge rate kinda like a loaded gun. We removed 4 very low like .356- .566v to 1.311v ect. Rehabing or conditioning those which we did 3 of 4 sucessfully is a whole different matter but involves the 2 amp charger setting on a unit with 3 settings (combo type 2a, 10a & 30a NOT recommended for these batt cell types of course, BTW)
    With a good working analog ammeter for several reasons directly related to cells high charge rate, overheat potential, safety, ect. One can hit the crystilized sulfated cells with the 10a but for very short bursts to knock off shorted crystals less than 15 second durations but let cool off for at least 20 minutes beware as not tensioned in with bars & without fan airflow from normal vehicle instsllation, lack of heat transfer is a concern. Safety glasses are a must. Then cycle with 2a for short durations (based on voltage readings and how fast they bleed off voltage) of 30 seconds but no more than 45 sec and keep hand on leads and constantly watch ammeter as the needle and humming sounds will tell you when going down about 1/6 scale your cell is taking charge, if its pegging out and making more straining humms stop at 45 sec or sooner & let both cell & charger cool. Leads may get warm on charger. Either upgrade the leads to 2 guages larger or both be very very careful to short cycle in 15-30 sec cycles & cool 15 minutes. Heat is a batt killer.
    Conditioning:
    I also in between after working my way through other cells used a pair of $15 high frequency modulator batt desulfication units via Ebay to desulfate and condition (not same as balancing). These units consume a very small amount of power so we trickle charged the cells ocasionally or during oscillation. Then after alll cells were satisfactioraly taking a charge and holding it within a hundreth volt per 10 seconds we let them all sit a few weeks. But you could go to next step sooner.
    Took a second set of volt readings and compared them. All cells passed if they dropped no nore than ~ .1 (tenth) volt per week as most were better than that.
    Balancing:
    Then before final assy cells were checked for grouping as in arranging in array from center of each half of assembled unit matching voltages closely as to prevent discharge into each cells neighbors when assembled in series. Then every cell was topped off to be as close to the same as possible ~8.5v +- .1v or less in above described 2amp method. We used constantly during first two charging cycles an accurate digital non contact infra red thermometer to prevent overheating cells & charger. Now again safety and tons of careful procedures & best practices were used here not described so, Disclaimer: do this at your own risk. I researched deeply these HV batts & NIMH batt technonlgy, desulficatiin methods for a week or two (about 20 hours) before doing above in addition to having 31 years of real world experience. Results may vary. Hope this helps.

    SM-G900T ?
     
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  4. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    That is the correct torque for fastener sizes in that dia range for steel alloy for electrical installations which are a bit by thumb or most charts lower than structural tension torques. It could be a bit lower safely as there is no real tension or shear loads here for this installation and IIRC Chapter 20 of Boeings electrical standard practice manual agree with this range for this material & nut fastener size.

    SM-G900T ?
     
  5. JTM2955

    JTM2955 Active Member

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    Well sir, I can't match those credentials but let me bring you up to date on mine. I have an AAS in Automotive Service Technology, a Nissan Master Techician, ASE Master Auto technician and I taught at IVTC and Lincoln College of Technology. I have worked on vehicles practically forty years and professionally for over thirty years.
    I do feel comfortable in the troubleshooting of the electrical systems and the engineering behind it.
    I agree that I changed mote batteries when it got hot outside than I ever did during the cold winters of Indiana. I was always elected to fix the brain buster car that everyone else had just thrown parts at and not fixed it.

    I am an old tech that learned the right way and helped train other brand new techs in the right way.

    I have attended college for a couple of year and understand chemistry, heat transfer and always think of safety first ( I still have all my fingers and eyeballs after thirty years).
    You are the first person to do conditioning of the cells. And you also bring to my attention desulfication with an oscillator. Seems like lots of work but what isn't any more?

    Do you use a Fluke meter for ptecise digital readings? I do have a digital infra red thermometer but don't believe it can read to mote than 0.1 degree. Is that critical or can it be higher?
    So rebuilding the HV battery will take time and effort. Afterwards, did your battery work like new again? I hear the high price for one of these batteries and I cringe at the money involved. Did you get a new battery cell or recondition tje ones grom your own battery.

    Sorry for the long post since I am interested in doing the same to my '04 when the time comes. Thanks specialtyneeds
     
  6. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    That thermometer is fine.
    I used a Klein MM200 about $50 is the minimum I would recommend. Oddly the pad printer at the factory mis marked it MM100 (its, (MM100) is not good enough IMHO. The better one MM200 has 4 buttons above the dial. I do have access to expensive Flukes but they are too bulky for my liking & this type of work. The Harbor Freight cheap / giveaway ones are not anywhere good enough is what I meant.

    I have a '04 in addition to the '06 (~141kmi) this one is from also, but bought the '04 with the HV serviced from a used dealer in much better not wrecked condition it (HV batt) works good but I did this as a prepper ie getting prepared just in case it fails if the fella who did it his "Hybrid guy" was not thorough enough or another cell bombs out cause the '04 is now at the 150k mi mark that most have trouble from. This method was a quicker lower cost option with nearly everything I owned already except oscillators while I was waiting onfront end wrevk rebuild parts to come in. I have plans to build a modified to my own specs multi tap / voltage ie "bad boy with manners" (see web search) entire HV pack conditioner with oscillator with main power from a large mercury vapor or similar light transformer with several taps commonly used for hangar lighting.
    We should be installing this one sometime in a the next days. But in no hurry we are as this '06 has had a lot of work to the inverter case 2 areas mig welded and a bunch of crash parts, core support mig replaced on dr lh side, rad, fans, both rad & inverter resivoirs, condenser assy, hood latch, bumper cover, hood, ect. from San Antonio USAA enployee who was issued it when the company car was toatled. I am also teaching 2 of my young adult sons, one whi is reading disabled this high tech vehicle as we go.
    I am more than confident that this battery will perform very good without any issues for a long time when we install it at least until another cell fails.
    The only thing we did not do was top off with fluid as its more tedious involving drilling & pluging or messing with the valve and did not seem necessary.
    Do not think I am first to do it this way just maybe first to post as many out there are smarter but in all things perserverence pays off.

    SM-G900T ?
     
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  7. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    BTW, i plan on permanently installing the oscillators on both my Prii auxillary batteries as that poor little batt seems over taxed a bit in this car and. One big thing we did already that helped the aux batt out a lot was all interior & door incandescants to LED's. Also license plate bulbs converted to LED's. There are kits cheap on Ebay with 8- 10 bulbs in them ie replacements for this.

    SM-G900T ?
     
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  8. specialtyneed

    specialtyneed Junior Member

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    Forgot to answer the cell question. My OP or origional post, should have stated IIRC that 4 cells were bad and had low volt reading from between ~ .335-1.135 'ish readings and omitted (forgot to state) as is usual they all discharged into each other and were together not in the end where cooling was better as in classic heat aggravated related cycle failure once a cell got shorted likely the .335v one was first as the rest that failed were at least .245v-.8v'ish better off. I ordered 4 good used cells off ebay that I required to test @ and hold stable at least 7.3-7.5vdc.

    We did manage to rehab 3 of 4 of the "bad" cells with the same methods but just more charge brief cycles slow charging (~.7a) & oscillation time as its a very slow process. Only problem was the float chargers were cheap and squirrley and its labor intensive to say the least. I shelved them for emergencies. Don't try it just buy good ones. The (or ones we got) oscillators (most are this way) tend to not work at these 7ish volt ranges as 8vdc min is stated in the specs as reqd for operation but they use batt or any power available to work, due to circuitry in them designed for 12v-24v ranges so playing with then to trick them into working was a real fun (not) time.
     
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  9. sub3marathonman

    sub3marathonman Active Member

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    OK, a bit of an old thread, but I'm wondering one more detail.

    For the 48 inch-lbs torque to install, is that for lightly oiled threads or dry?

    Also, does anybody use a digital torque adapter or torque wrench and if so which one? I have the Craftsman 944593 model, but I just don't really believe it is within specs for accuracy.
     
  10. hchu1

    hchu1 Active Member

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    I believe that is dry with clean threads. If you lube it there is good chance that it will be over torqued, that is what I have been told.