Hybrid batteries vs Hybrid ECU?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Richiemoe, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    The discharge test, i did until the codes came back on. I was able to push the gas enough that the engine didn't start, but the the hybrid battery level was so low, it kicked on amd started charging it back up some. But once the code came back on, it stopped charging the hybrid battery. I wanted to keep this clean, but i also want to show all stats possible. Sorry for the many pics! Included is also the freeze frame for both main codes. 20190817_193638.jpg 20190817_193631.jpg 20190817_193730.jpg 20190817_193416.jpg 20190817_193936.jpg 20190817_193408.jpg 20190817_193907.jpg 20190817_193218.jpg 20190817_193810.jpg 20190817_193209.jpg 20190817_193759.jpg 20190817_193539.jpg 20190817_193532.jpg 20190817_193438.jpg 20190817_193431.jpg
     
  2. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    The battery pack is now out. I tested block 4.
    Initial test:
    4a: 16.1
    4b: 16.1

    Test after 120sec with vehicle light bulb attached:
    4a: 15.5
    4b: 15.5

    I was hoping that one would be super low... Is there a better way to tell which is bad? I normally replace both. But the last replacement, one cell was in the 14's and the other was still good, so i only replaces one, from the 2 pack i ordered... i do however, have cells that i took out in the past, when i replaced both. After doing the light bulb test, i have some that are still pretty strong. Put one if those in?
     
  3. Raytheeagle

    Raytheeagle Senior Member

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    Did you measure all module voltages?

    Which end did you start counting blocks from?
     
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  4. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    I did not test all of the voltages. Only block 5 and back to 1. I only did the light bulb test with block 4. I've always understood it as block 1 is furthest from the ecu/orange safety switch, and block 1 being the closest. I think this might be my 6, 7 or 8th time taking the hybrid pack out.... i should have replaces the whole thing at the time. But on January 1st, however many years ago, the dash lit up and the dealership said $3,500 and we were broke at the time. I just wanted to get it on the road again.... At 223k miles, not sure if i want to spend $800 on a refurbished battery? It runs well, no rust, just replaced the spark plugs a month ago, and the water pump about a year ago. I used napa high mileage oil, the engine seems to run well... But spending every other weekend, taking out the pack this summer, is getting old.....
     
  5. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    My advice would be you don't ever want to spend $800 on a refurbished battery, unless you personally know the refurbisher and the processes s/he uses. A better option is to buy a working Gen 3 pack from a recent wreck and transplant all of its modules into your Gen 2 case.

    The best option is to replace all modules with new ones. If you can't stretch to $1,600 for newpriusbatteries.com new or $2,200 for OEM new (or don't want to put that amount into the car), just keep replacing failed modules as they fail (whack-a-mole). The more replacements you do, the harder it becomes to keep the battery working. One thing of which you can be sure, all the modules will eventually fail, so you will be replacing them all in the long run. At this point, the other real option is to replace the whole car.
    Correct (on Gen 2)
    If you are going to do this, you need to test all modules, because the point is to compare the relative differences of the delta voltages. If you are not looking for that, there is no point.

    But you would benefit from reconditioning and balancing each module.
     
    #25 dolj, Aug 17, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
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  6. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    You did not capture the screen shot with the battery under charge, The screen shots are after the battery was done charging. The "Bat Pack Current Val" is +2.03 amps. It is the 14th line on the left side of the data list. That means the battery was under discharge when the data was captured. Under charge the Bat Pack Current Value can be up to -60 amps. Under a 60 amp charge the weak blocks, modules, cells will have the highest voltage.
     
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  7. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    The 9th page shows block 12 at 12.84 volts while the other blocks are at 14+ volts. That is where the problem is. I'm not sure which page is the other half of the data.
     
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  8. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    Block 12 looks terrible.
    That should be obvious for you to see.
     
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  9. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    Thanks! I dis read that i should check all of the voltages, then so the 120 test, and try again. I just haven't had the time.... But i need to make time to do it correctly! Does the hardware to balance and/or recondition, cost a decent amount? I'm all for spending money if i know it will work, but i get nervous with expensive gambles. I'll definitely keep any eye out for a 3rd gen pack that was from a totalled vehicle! The car has 223k miles. I just don't think it is worth the cost of all new batteries....

    This was my first time doing the test. I waited over 2 minutes, but i guess i waited too long.... I'll try again tomorrow or soon. I just want to get the pack back in tonight, so i can make it to work tomorrow...

    Thanks!! I hadn't looked over all of the images. I took pics, took the battery out, and got sleep so i could drive across the state 6 hours later... lol Super easy to see that bad block, wow! My bad!! I wonder why block 4 is throwing the bad code???

    Thanks! I honestly rushed with the test, then pics, took the battery pack out and got some sleep. I totally missed that! I wonder why it is showing block 4 as bad, when block 12 is bad? 1 cell is low, 15.0, the other is 16.1, right now.
     
  10. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    Good question! Is that a left over code from previous repairs?


    Using Techstream to do a forced discharge and charge is much quicker than doing the light bulb thing.
     
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  11. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    Oddly, no. I cleared all of the codes.
    Good to know, i thought i had to do the lightbulb test on each battery. It makes sense that i can do a discharge test with techstream! I'll make sure i take a screenshot before it is fully charged next time. I'm still learning, thanks again for the advice!!!

    I replaced the bad cell from Block 12 last night. Then i someone lost one of the nuts that keep the copper/orange cable down, that connects the to hybrid battery. I gave up at 1am. 7am, started looking, went to Ace at 8am, got a makeshift nut and washer. Made it to work only an hour late. Oddly, it drove great!!!! The battery charge bars didn't fluctuate NEARLY as much as they normally do!!! It didn't turn purple when i turned on the car or drove a little down the street. It didn't shift funky because the hybrid battery was so low (i've been nervous of possible transmission issues), i drove to work on the highway and it stayed almost all higher end blue bars. Then i coasted a really long off ramp, it charged to green. Normally, i take off and the cells do to mid to low blue levels. It stayed at green all the way to my work, 2 lights, a decent up hill and almost a mile away. When i was at the light, getting off the off ramp. The engine didn't keep kicking on and off like normal. It stayed off and green charge, WITH THE AC RUNNING. It also didn't rev high light normal, when i'm done coasting and the bars are green. That is really rare!!!!
     
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  12. Skibob

    Skibob Senior Member

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    A Prius doesn’t have a transmission and doesn’t shift. What you think is shifting is the engine and MG1 producing electricity to run MG2 and charge the traction battery.
     
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  13. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    You're right, my bad. I was thinking the transaxle. I'm not sure where the issue is, because i've had battery issues for a while.... But i'm thinking that it might just be battery issues and not the transaxle. Which, if that is the case, i'd be ok with finding a junked gen 3 prius and buying the battery pack. Just not sure how much i want to put into a 223k mile car?
     
  14. Skibob

    Skibob Senior Member

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    A tough call. I’m guessing you have some rust. That perspective is harder for people like me that live in California to comprehend. Cars in the non snow areas just don’t rust. My cars all have their original exhausts. All over 200,000 miles.
     
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  15. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    The exhaust is making a little noise, but it isn't bad. Other than that, no rust! My wife bought the car used, and was told it came from Florida. Minus the hybrid cells, i've only had to replace the water pump. Knock on wood, it has been a great vehicle, with low maintenance!! Even in Michigan, all of my vehicles reach at LEAST 200k. I had a '97 F150 that was at 395k miles.... lol

    My wife and I have been working the Dave Ramsey baby steps. We have all debt paid off, minus our house and $8k left on a '12 Ford Flex. So i'm trying to make this Prius last, until we have the Flex paid off.... I'd like to last another 2 years, but at least until Spring would be nice....
     
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  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    A transaxle is a transmission that has the final drive and differential gearing in the same box.

    The transmission/transaxle in the Prius does not have discrete shift points ... it has a continuously variable torque/speed ratio from the engine to the final drive, which is achieved by changing the timing of electrical pulses at its two sets of motor windings.
     
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  17. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    Congratulations on a successful DIY battery repair. Of course it drove great after you replaced the problem module! Hopefully you will get at least a few months of use before you have to repeat the process. It will go much quicker next time.

    Below are a couple of pictures showing a forced charge and discharge on today's failed battery. The first shot shows the battery under a 15.53 amp charge. Note that the voltage of block 4 is a volt higher than most of the others. The second picture shows a 8.08 amp discharge rate and block 4 is now 1.7 volts below the rest. Once you understand how to do the forced charge and discharge test it takes just a couple of minutes to identify which block has failed. In this battery block 1 also looks suspect.

    Using this tool to replace just one module is fine for a DIY project. You should not expect to get years of use from this shortcut.

    batc.jpg

    batd.jpg
     
  18. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    Totally agreed! I think this is maybe the 7th or 8th time that i've taken the battery pack out; possibly more. Before, i would test both cells in the block. If one was very low, and the other looked fine, i would only replace the bad cell. Then i started getting codes for blocks, but both cells looked normal, so i would replace both. This process worked for about 6-8 months at a time. But like you said, i've definitely noticed this happening more and more now.... I've been looking around for a 2010-2015 that has been junked, to put all of those cells into my vehicle. Hopefully a '13-'15...

    From your pictures, that is what i'm still in the process of learning. When i do the charge/discharge test with techstream, it still only shows which block is bad, not which cell. Then when i take the cells out, both cells are around 15.6. After the discharge, i thought that was fine. Do i just replace both?

    Using the more time consuming method, i tested a bunch of cells that i pulled out a while ago. Then i wrote down the volt reading in one column. Then i hooked up a vehicle headlight for 120 seconds and took another reading. Some had dropped a LOT. Some were bad in the first reading. But someone didn't drop much and were about the same level as others. So i kept those ones as emergency backups. I'd love to keep learning this way, as i don't have the time to keep swapping out cells all the time. Baby on the way, still finishing the house, my business is growing like crazy, but i don't want a car payment. So i hope this will last until spring, when i'll have cash saved up by then, and my wife's '12 ford flex paid off by then.

    I think part of the testing of the cells that is frustrating is not fully knowing what i'm doing. It seemed pretty overwhelming at first. But i'm getting the hang of it, so thank you again for your input!!!! I'm getting there!!! :)
     
  19. bobodaclown

    bobodaclown Member

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    Check car-parts.com you can search by vehicle, year, battery type.
     
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  20. Richiemoe

    Richiemoe Junior Member

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    Thank you! Wow, found some 2014's & 2015's with the whole hybrid battery for under $600!!!

    Question, 2010-2015 are the 3rd gen cells that i can use in my 2006 Prius, correct, and just the cells, not the ECU, right? So a 2015 Prius V will work with my 2006 Prius? The Prius V shows the 3rd gen as being 2012-2016. But the vehicle descriptions look the same, just a difference in vehicle size, right?
     
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