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Hybrid cars may pose silent threat to the blind

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Jul 8, 2008.

  1. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    I don't really think much of my insurance bill is based on the chances I will run into a blind person. Children, certainly. The bill says nothing about children. And as was pointed out in an earlier post, why just hybrids? My car makes a fair amount of noise when moving down the road even in all-electric mode. There are a number of cars that make about the same amount of noise.

    As for the "smart highway," it should come, but it has to direct all vehicles to be effective. The tech is really there but it would cost a lot of money, and most of that would be government money. And in America we don't pay taxes for anything.
     
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It comes from section 3 of HR 5734 where they 'guild the lily' by claiming a larger population than just the blind. So being a friendly sort of guy, I took up their claim used it as a "clue by four." I cite the documented, 25 dead children in 2006 versus their three anecdotal stories and 6 blind killed by ordinary, sound emitting vehicles.
    You are correct that many modern cars are equally quiet to our hybrid electrics. But the blind choose our rides and I happen to be a hybrid electric owner who noticed no one asked us about HR 5734. Worse, those who might have had something to contribute, the manufacturers and SAE, are quite happy to add another useless but high-profit item to our cars, to jack up the price, since it is no skin off of their noses.

    In this we disagree because the first time three Prius roll down the highway with 3 ft. difference between their bumpers at 75 mph getting an aggregate 80 MPG, every other vendor will have mobs of customers with pitchforks and effigies demanding the same system. This will force "smart highways" instead of their continued piddling around in the lab.

    The insurance savings will start slow, simply because we're only 2% of the vehicle population. But again, when Mom's see safety and the ability to detect pre-school children, now we take the high road and the alleged 'safety' of SUVs gets buried in the dust bin of history.

    Bob Wilson
     
  3. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

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    While walking in my neighborhood, I can hear a car coming from quite a ways off because of the air displacement. I don't hear the gas engine so it's not a matter of how quiet hybrids are, that's bs. It's just another group who want a mandate to make someone else responsible while they get to not pay attention and zone out. The issue isn't that a hybrid doesn't make enough noise, it's that a lot of people don't pay attention to their surroundings for the most part and that's the real problem. The way to fix it would be for the blind (or any other pedestrian for that matter, especially for people who can't seem to walk or run for exercise without being plugged in to an iPod) to wear something that emits a mild shock to them whenever a car or other vehicle is moving closer to them. I'll bet the blind wouldn't want that one but it's ok for a hybrid to be fitted with a dingdong bell, evidently.
     
  4. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    Bob,
    On the highway issue, I guess it depends on where you live. I live in a state that doesn't require motorcyclists to wear helmets in the name of personal freedom, and is still debating whether smoking should be banned in the workplace. I feel confident that the reaction will not be envy but as a challenge, requiring them to figure out how to kill everyone in a road rage incident. For places like LA where most people seem to understand the concept of cooperation getting everyone to their destination more quickly, it would probably work.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I understand the opposition to this bill and as it is currently written, I too would oppose it. But telling me does no good. You really need to let your congressman know what you think about HR 5734, what I call the "Bell the Hybrid Act."

    Our congress critters can't do the right thing if by silence, we assent to the legislation. Fortunately, most have at least an e-mail way to drop your note as well as a Washington DC and local to your district phone number. It doesn't take much but it takes something.

    Now from my standpoint, I see HR 5734 as a means to an end, bootstrapping the "smart highway." More importantly, just for the hybrids that the blind have focused upon, the Toyota and associated Ford and Nissan hybrids ... Ok, GM two-modes too. But if the bill disappears, I won't be too disappointed but will continue my development efforts anyway. <grins>

    Bob Wilson
     
  6. Bill Merchant

    Bill Merchant absit invidia

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    To write to your congressional representative, go to http://house.gov where you can look up your rep by your state or zip code. And be sure to write to the critters I listed above.
     
  7. Froley1

    Froley1 New Member

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    I wonder if prior to starting this legislation anyone actually checked to see if a blind person has ever actually been struck by a prius ????
    Froley
     
  8. Bill Merchant

    Bill Merchant absit invidia

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    It appears to me that the National Federation for the Blind are being pro-active, or being led by a noise-maker manufacturer. In fact, in the five years to 2006, for which data is available, NO BLIND PEDESTRIANS WERE KILLED BY HYBRID CARS. But why let facts get in the way of legislation?
     
  9. zenMachine

    zenMachine Just another Onionhead

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    If this bill becomes law, does it mean all existing hybrids must be retrofitted with sound-emitting devices? And what if you don't comply? How will the police know to give you a ticket? Will they be patrolling car parks and malls to try to catch these stealthy menaces to society?
     
  10. bac

    bac Active Member

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    ThanX Bill for stating the facts. As you say, they sometimes get lost in the litagation mix.

    ... Brad
     
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Sometimes it helps to take the statistical data Dr. Hogan provided and convert it into a practical example. To keep the math simple, I will take the percentage of blind to be ~0.1% of the population and a few other, back of the envelope, rounding short-cuts.

    If we took 1,000 American pedestrians and put one every 100 yards along a road, it would stretch a little over 100 miles with only one blind person in the group. If the hybrid electric travels just under the highest speed their researcher has mentioned, say 25 mph, the HR 5734 mandated noise maker would annoy 999 of the pedestrians for about 30 seconds as it passes, the hybrid driver would put up with four hours and only one grateful blind person would hear it for 30 seconds. But the blind person would find only 15 seconds useful as the vehicle approaches and 15 seconds of noise masking another hybrid as it leaves.

    Now when you do the sums, about 1.999 people will be hearing the HR 5734 noise maker over a four hour period just so one blind person can hear it for 15 useful and 15 useless seconds. Now I am an engineer and believe we can still give the blind their 15 useful seconds using the equipment already in our hybrid electrics by giving them a modified "panic" key fob.

    In a very low power mode (self powered in fact,) the blind "panic" key fob would listen for our hybrid electric car and when it is within range, the "panic" fob will send out a series of transmissions announcing "blind person here." As the hybrid car receives these transmissions and notices them increasing in signal strength, it begins 'bleeping' the horn to let the driver, the blind person, and any by-standers know "blind person in the area of this approaching car." Now we have at least two people notified of a potential accident and one has eyes and control of the car to avoid a collision. But there is someone else besides the blind I want to know are in the area.

    In 2006, 25 kids died, many pre-schoolers, in backover accidents by the bumpers and exhaust pipes of running engines. The driver could not tell that the kids were there because of the size of the kids and limited rear visibility. But if we replace the little LED flashers found in small kid sneakers with a kid "panic" key fob, the same electronics that lets us know there is a blind person in the area could let us know there is a small child near-by. Not perfect, it is head and shoulders above trying to peer through the rear steel doors and trunks. But something else happens when we have our cars establishing limited range, wireless networks.

    We can use this same wireless network to exchange wheel RPM data, quite rapidly, 100 times per second. Tied to the accelerator and a brake actuator, two cars can drive as if they are one. In fact, three cars can drive as if they are one. Add to that a "brake light" signal, and they can now follow each other at much closer distances ... a high-speed convoy ... SAFE drafting.

    If we add two antenna to the front bumper and one at the center of the rear, we can tell if the lead vehicle is wandering left or right. This can feed into our electronic steering and keep the following car "in the slot." Now the following car(s) continue their close drafting with very little steering inputs.

    The front antenna can also look at approaching hybrids and the two can calculate if a collision is likely within a fraction of a second. They can then use horns, lights and brakes to minimize the collision risk. Automatic steering would not be practical since the vehicles can not see other risks. But they can give both drivers a strong "WATCH OUT," a computer managed, driver assistant.

    As it stands today, HR 5734 is fatally flawed because it mandates only one solution, hybrid noise makers. It doesn't ask our best and brightest minds to come up with better solutions that are more effective and less costly. But the blind, limited to only one 'hammer', their ears, think the problem as just a 'nail', putting noise makers on hybrids. This is why we must have hybrid electric owners at the table.

    The cut-off for NHTSA comments is August 1, 2008. By July 25, I will be sending my final comments on HR. 5734 to the NHTSA. A technical document, it incorporates not only my presentation that was denied at the meeting but it will also include other analysis of what was learned at the meeting. But in parallel, my petition to Congress will go with a cover letter to every representative whose voter signed the petition.

    Last week, I sent a preliminary version of my petition letter and an initial set of 6 sheets gathered in one weekend to all co-sponsors of HR 5734 and every member of the sub-committee that will review the bill. But this was just a preliminary mailing. Hopefully, they will get an idea that maybe some of us don't like how HR 5734 is being railroaded through Congress.

    Before August 1st, every representative of voters who sign this petition will get a letter that includes a count of their voters, names and addresses. I will try to send a "Thank you" postcard to each signer for their support with their representative's office address and phone number.

    I can not tell if this will be enough to get a seat at the table on HR 5734 but it is all that I know to do. We either fix HR 5734 or kill it. But this I know for sure: your silence is assent.

    Bob Wilson
    625k Inc.
     
  12. Rybold

    Rybold globally warmed member

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    excellent point!!!

     
  13. resoh02

    resoh02 Member

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    :mad: This is about as stupid as anything I have ever heard. :mad: Are people just trying to find ways of shooting down the Prius. lots of times anyway the engine is running when driving in traffic. I am not clear why a blind person is walking and crossing the street, I guess without a traffic light, and without out a seeing eye dog. How does a blind person cross the street anyway without assistance. They can,t see the walk and wait lights. I have also heard that people with hearing impairment has a problem with the prius, I guess they just walk accross the street without looking.

    Unbelievable
     
  14. abcdefgary

    abcdefgary New Member

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    The only threat hybrid cars poses are towards Hummers.
     
  15. klodhopper

    klodhopper New Member

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    Using this bill as precedent, we now should legislate that if you walk, you must whistle. Put bells on cats, and mandatory cards in spokes on bicycle wheels.

    Well at least the blind will be pretty sure who ran over them.:eek:

    /nanny state