Hybrid minivan is coming.. and no it is not HEV

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by cyclopathic, Apr 28, 2011.

  1. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    they certainly have advantage with higher charge/discharge rate, and easier to package, more space.

    I wonder if someone would take a 3-cyl engine and package it alone with hydraulics and transaxle into one module. Imagine the possibilities! in small/light compact car.

    What looks to be really attractive in hydraulic system is lower cost, higher capacity and higher power output then HEV, at least with current batteries. Would not be surprising if the overall efficiency of mechanical -> hydraulic -> mechanical conversion is higher then mechanical -> electric -> mechanical
     
  2. billnchristy

    billnchristy Active Member

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    If you look in the picture in the article I believe that is what they have there.
     
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Over at gassavers there was poster who had developed a hub mounted hydraulic system. Even has a patent. Next step was to install it on a demostration vehicle. Unfortunetly, he faded away from the site. If it lives up to expectations, it should be easy to retrofit onto existing vehicles, like the USPS's little trucks.
     
  4. billnchristy

    billnchristy Active Member

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    I tried to convince the guys in my shop to convert our EZ-GO to an air powered hybrid. We had some air motors that came off of air operated valves and I wanted to connect one to the drive train so you could put the golf cart in neutral, turn on the air motor and feed it off a tank in the bed.

    It wouldn't last long but I imagine it would have exceeded the EV speed by a long shot, and it would've sounded bad to the bone too. :)

    So...I suppose it would be an anti-hybrid in that compressed air costs a fortune to make and it would be used to solely make the vehicle faster...but man would it have been cool.
     
  5. Skoorbmax

    Skoorbmax Senior Member

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    haha. With it being a chrysler chancses are it will spring a leak and shoot high pressure fluid into the cabin.

    But really I do hope this works, not having regen is so silly, all cars should have it, whether they have an electric motor or not coming up to a light and bleeding all that energy away as heat is savage. It's how the cavemen used to drive around the same time they discovered fire.
     
  6. billnchristy

    billnchristy Active Member

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    I think they used their feet then, at least thats what tv told me. ;)
     
  7. billnchristy

    billnchristy Active Member

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    The UPS hybrids used regen in the form of re-charging the hydraulic accumulator, if Chrysler doesn't do this then you will always need the engine to create pressure, it kind of defeats the purpose.

    I think a mix of electric/hydraulic regen would be best so you could have a small battery bank to power ac and other electric accessories that would otherwise require the ICE.
     
  8. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    Every thermodynamic process envolving compressing has a bit of a loss.
    How much would one expect?
    And it will be practical?

    At least we know that a PHEV charge has a loss of less than 15%.:p
     
  9. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    Actually I meant as a one module with hydraulic tanks; if it is the same size as regular power plant you could just drop it in in any car w/o major redesign, and utilize firewall for protection from blow out.

    From packaging/weight distribution point it would probably make more sense to put tanks in trunk.
     
  10. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    they will probably use hydraulics to power alternator.

    From the UPS truck diagrams looks like there is no mechanical pass from ICE to wheels, ICE drives pump and hydraulics drive wheels.
    here is some info Around the Block in the First UPS Hydraulic Hybrid Vehicle
    and video YouTube - HHV How it Works Video
     
  11. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi All,

    Hydraulic Hybrids have shown extreme improvements in city stop and go cycles. The hydraulic brakes, motors and tubing have more power in practical sizes, and the use of the hydraulic accumulator stored energy within a few minutes of stopping results in a high efficiency of reuse. Hybrid batteries, and wires just do not have efficiency at high power. So, when reaccellerating there is allot of wasted energy.

    The Prius does about 43 % efficiency of reuse (while being in the 80's % efficiency of regeneration). The hydraulic hybrid should be able to get above 60 % efficiency of reuse, with similar efficiency of regeneration (but a higher braking power).

    So, the hydraulic hybrid is a good vehicle for the soccer mom, doing suburban pickups and deliveries. As well as for package delivery service companies.

    The disadvantage of the hydraulic hybrid is it cannot store power for long periods, like overnight. The energy leaks out in the form of heat from the compressed gas accumulator, and this will be a special problem in 0 degree weather. But, for the time between braking and restarting at the typical stoplight, the energy loss is minimul.
     
  12. billnchristy

    billnchristy Active Member

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    Good points, it also seems to make sense to not even try to store the pressure when idle because you increase the probability for leaks. But, as you say you can recharge quick so by the time you are out of your neighborhood in the morning you probably have the juice already.
     
  13. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    yeah but you are not loosing all energy, only part of it. Per thermodynamics P*T stays constant, so if temp drop from just charged (assume 150C) to 0F (-18C) the pressure will drop (273-18)/(273+150) =~ 0.6.

    You still have all the hydraulic fuel as it does not compress, there will be as much in the morning, albeit at lower pressure. And fluid has much higher thermal density then nitrogen, so even with not so much insulation temp will stay well above ambivalent.

    Interesting part is that with much higher charge rates plug-in becomes more practical, 240v/20amp circuit will put out 4.8kWh in one hour. Also preheating would be a good way to maximize efficiency, preheat ICE and the hydraulic tank. Or use exhaust to preheat just like in Prius.
     
  14. sipnfuel

    sipnfuel New Member

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    That's true in some sense that the ICE waste heat can eventually reheat the fluid to recover all the lost energy for "free", almost. Another side benefit of the combined heat and power (cogeneration) of the ICE, I suppose.
     
  15. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    IMHO the hydraulic if thought through could be made very efficient.. Now by Chrysler??
     
  16. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi cyclo...,

    There is no hydraulic "fuel". The "Fuel" is compressed gas in the accumulator.

    I think what you meant to says is P/T is constant in a constant volume system. And your answer is probably right. [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideal_gas_law[/ame] . Think about starting up your Prius that was at 6 bars (65 % SOC) and having it at 1 bar (39 %) in the morning.


    Yes, they have ways to reduce the leakage, but I have not heard of super-insulation being used as of yet. And even if it was, there is still leakage out the large metal fluid lines.

    Good ideas regarding using exhaust to heat the accumulator.
     
  17. sipnfuel

    sipnfuel New Member

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    Hmm... is it possible to close a ball valve during a power off condition, that can contain X psi or so?
     
  18. telmo744

    telmo744 HSD fanatic

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    At a time of reducing costs and "lean design" for getting a better product, I don't really think that a 3rd power system will help very much in an overview.
    We are now used to electric power assisted steering, AC, not to say windows, lighting, controls and ICE starter...
    I can imagine a new setup with hybraulic lines for many of these equipments...and it would be much difficult to build!

    For a bigger vehicle, that could be a good solution and idea. For a lightweight and small car, nearly impossible.
     
  19. billnchristy

    billnchristy Active Member

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    Thats why I think a small hydraulic/electric generator, mild regen and a small battery pack is the better solution.

    It adds another system sure but I don't want 5k PSI hydraulic oil rolling my window down. ;)

    Or a mid voltage alternator on the ICE.
     
  20. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Senior Member

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    power steering was traditionally hydraulic, it only became electric few years back and Chrysler had put hydraulic power brake assist in pre-1995 Caravans.. how hard would be to bring it back? It should not be difficult to design hydraulic driven AC compressor. With respect to powering other electric devices, they will need hydraulic-driven alternator.
     
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