Hybrid vs. Hybrid Again Oct. 20th

This is your reply to my post. Maybe you are not trying to fool me but you definatey trying to short circuit me.

Then you change your mind and claim that atkinson is ok but we would need more rules. You know little about endurance racing. Only one race counts. It is the Le mans sarth race. In this race cars use electric power for 7 % of the lap time. For the rest 93 % of time, they are not hybrids.

This is how audi and FIA brainwash dumb people. First they dont allow toyota use their hybrid concept. Yet they put some silly restrictions to their diesel tech because they want to hide the true fact. I repeat myself again.

You are opening topics without sense from out of nowhere.

 

What ever dude, I'm not trying to do anything but to inform you.

 

This seems to be the official rules for 2013.
http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFichiers/1/1/ressources/Pdf/2013/24-heures-du-mans/regulations/2013-technical-regulations-lm-p.pdf

An Atkinsonized engine isn't banned, but variable valve timing is. So you couldn't have an engine that could switch between Otto and Atkinson cycles. So, it is one or the other. Since the Atkinson gives up power for fuel efficiency, using it in a race would be of limited benefit. Less pit time doesn't help if you can't keep up with the pack. With variable valve timing having been around for decades, this hurts everyone.

Toyota hybrids could be hindered by the limits on regenerative brake, but again, this limits everyone. I know people hear Toyota hybrid and think Prius, which could definitely beat all these cars in a fuel economy challenge. That isn't what this is. It is an endurance race. The car has to be able to travel at high speeds, and reach those speeds in a quick enough time not to be left behind.

If there were no limits on the car, it wouldn't be a Prius Toyota entered, it be something like the LS 600h. Compared to other cars in its class, the Lexus doesn't have much in way of an advantage.
Compare Side-by-Side
The Mercedes and BMW are about a second slower off the line, but that doesn't add up too much in a race that lasts hours.

 

Thanks!

I will take a read of the rules when I have a few minutes. Here are some of the questions I have:

• Could an Atkinsoned valved engine could have some from of variable speed, blower to in effect become a Miller cycle? The blower becomes a backdoor that transitions to Otto when max power is needed but backs off to Atkinson when less power and more efficiency is needed.
• Is cooled exhaust recirculation allowed? So at high power settings it won't burn out the exhaust valves.

Bob Wilson

 

To your first question, yes, you can create a miller cycle turbocharged ice in lmp1. The maximum amount of boost is restricted by the rules but not the fixed valve timing. Toyota is using a normally aspirated ice in their lmp1 car though, and they are reported to get 40% thermal efficiency, which is higher than the prius ice.

To the second question, I haven't heard that asked before. The lmp1 endurance races are a minimum of 6 hours most of that at high speeds, the valving is built for that without cooled egr.

 

I honestly didn't look farther into it, but turbos are allowed. So a supercharger should be too. They just have their own limits. I think it would end up balancing out the output between what a charged and natural aspirated engine can have for the race.

GasperG posted posted the air flow restrictions of various engines earlier.
- Petrol NA, 3,400 cm3 43.3 or 2 x 30.6 if two are used
- Petrol Turbo 2,000 cm3 42.9 or 2 x 30.3 and 2,500 mbar max pressure
- Diesel Turbo 3.700 cm3 45.8 or 2 x 32.4 and 2,800 mbar max pressure

So less air going into the turbo.

The problem for Atkinson engines here is that the rules don't distinguished between petrol cycles. If it did, higher air flows might be allowed. With a higher air flow, and larger displacement to match an Otto in power, the Atkinson engine will likely have the fuel consumption to match.

 

Do you have a link to that paper?

 

Toyota operates its atkinson cycle engines, thanks to vvt-i.
Conclusion 1. If toyota wants to switch to atkinson, they should discard their current atkinson tech and spend money and time to develop a new tech from the beginning.

You could not be more wrong. Endurance racing is all about the fuel efficiency. Less pit stop time help win races. More pit stop time lowers average speed... Variable valve time maybe helps everyone, but its hillarious for you trying to prove that the absence of vvt prevents turbo to provide ample amount of air to combustion chambers.
Conclusion 2 .Rules greatly favouring turbo engines against naturally aspirated engines.

What? Toyotas hybrid tech is lights of years ahead of audis. Toyota relies on hybrid tech for power and efficiency. Pascal Vasselon said in an interview, that his drivers have been complaining that once they are out of the electric boost, there is nothing left! On the other hand Audi relies on turbo diesel.
Conclusion 3. Rules greatly favouring audi again, by halting the performance of toyotas strong point.

 

I wouldn't conclude that Toyota is light years ahead in hybrid tech, don't mix normal production car with race car. It would be interesting to have Atkinson cycle engine in endurance race, but rules that limit air intake and engine displacement, simply doesn't offer any choice.

Maybe the rules should limit fuel flow rate, rather than air flow. That would be interesting, but obviously diesel would have to be adjusted for greater energy content per volume of fuel. This simple rule would eliminate all other silly rules from turbo charge, engine displacement, valve timing, air restriction ...

 

What is the reason that FIA has benn rejecting toyotas proposal about giving KERS a greater role on car performance?

 

This is part of the change for 2014. Fuel flow restriction is 3.99 liters/lap for diesel, 4.95 liters/lap for gasoline. I think the boost and volume restrictions go away. Someone with the documents can probably give all the rule changes.

 

Which is true of everyone running an Atkinsonized engine program for cars. It's how Ford and Honda does it. The only true Atkinson cycle engine available today is in a Honda cogen generator/heater.

So anyone wanting to run an Atkinson engine in this race with the current ban on variable valve timing will have to develop it from the beginning.

With variable timing allowed, everyone will use it, and the reason for its existence is to improve performance and fuel economy.

Yes, and the cars and drivers also have to stand up to the pressures put on them. And it is still a race. If time limits and high speeds weren't a concern, it would be a hypermiling challenge and not a race. Toyota's commercial, performance hybrid is only on par with its competitors at best.

Huh? Where did I try to do that? My discussions on variable valve timing and on turbos are in two different posts. The turbo one was just repeating GasperG's posting on airflow restrictions before the valves, which came from your link that I reposted.

Wrong. The high power and torque output from a smaller displacement is what favors turbos. They give the driver better control over power output and fuel efficiency. The rules try to level to field by allowing the NA engine to suck in more air.

The limits on kers and electric boost are arbitrary, but they weren't unknown. If Toyota ignored the car's performance without them, that is their fault. They also choose to compete in this. There is a link around here to a ACO(?) race without such strict limits.

So what that Audi uses diesels. The rules means their fuel tanks are nearly 4 gallons smaller. And if the rules did allow more input from a hybrid system, you don't think they won't simply tap Porsche for their performance hybrid knowledge do you?

 

Here is the explanation of the 2014 rules
LMP1 factory teams in 2014 WEC able to score points with two cars - Le Mans news - AUTOSPORT.com
The biggest changes are ice displacement for lmp1 is not restricted, Air restriction has also been removed, and maximum boost set at 4 bar. The restriction on valving is moved to no electro magnetic valves, which may mean variable valve timing based on other control may be allowed.

Fuel flow will now be restricted. For the hybrid gasoline (now E20) with an 8MJ hybrid system it is at 4.42 liters/lap with a 64.4L tank, for hybrid diesel with an 8MJ hybrid system it is now 3.56 liters/lap with a 53.3L tank.

Rules may have changed after this document.

 

I feel that I have been caught in this never-ending debate. Audis tech concept, does not include atkinson engines. It s toyotas concept that includes them. You and others here, for reasons I can't explain, don't want to understand that while FIA allows what audi follows all these years, they reject toyotas hybrid concept.

No. It has nothing to do with racing conditions and incidents. If a team cannot keep up with opponent race pace, then their only chance is to try beat them at pits.

You just did that, when you posted earlier.

So I replied to you that its ridiculous to claim that the absence of vvt has any impact on audis turbo (especially since it actually bans toyotas atkinson tech)!

You are just trying to lead me to wrong conclusions! You don't have to be a geek scientist to understand that, on racing environment competitiveness comes from the bigger engine. Turbo is just the icing on the cake, because it works like virtually adding more volume to combustion chambers.

No matter how fair sound, rules are based on the unequal principle, I 've mentioned at the top of my post.

Enough is enough with the mockery of facts! The 2012 spec TS030 chassis was built to be an AWD car, because they wanted to incorporate two hybrid systems, each in every axle. When FIA announced that despicable 3.5MJ rule, toyota decided to put hybrid drive only in rear axle. But it was too late to change the chassis. This is what Toyota Motorsport Chairman, Tadashi Yamashina had said sometime in 2011, when company announced entering racing about the company's intentions: "We want to write a new chapter in the history of the Le Mans 24 Hours, as in the FIA World Endurance Championship, through our use of hybrid technology."

As long as rules prevent toyota having any chance to achive what Tadashi Yamashina had said back in 2011, audi can have their cake and eat it too!

I don't care. I want fair play for everyone. Currently, rules don't EVEN give toyota the chance to develop a more advanced hybrid system, because it does no make sense to incorporate one. Enough with the immorality, cronyism and hypocrisy prevailing everything!

 

Did you read the 2014 rules I posted? Toyota is on a level playing field, they just reenetered lmp1 categories, and they need more experience. Then again porsche will reneter with the new rules;-) Porsche may even win with a turbo gasoline hybrid.

Its an outdated racing body, that made a lot of changes. 24 hours used to prove that the tech was reliable. They need to keep changing to be relevent. Its a race. Relax. I don't see anything immoral about it. Hey, you may want to pick some other sport like bull fighting.

 

First, my comment was not limited to turbos. It applies to all engines; turbo, NA, and even diesels. It's use can improve the efficiency and power range of any engine. Second, you didn't mention Audi originally. If Audi could use VVT, their diesel would be even better.

 

Toyota unveiled all new TS040 to compete against Audi TDI and Porsche 2.0 Turbo petrol. They are sticking with V8 NA petrol, but adding the electric four wheel drive system.

Green Car Congress: New Toyota TS040 racing hybrid features new V8 all-wheel drive hybrid system with supercap energy storage

PR:

Will this be a good recipe to compete against the TDI?

 

Yes, it can be a good recipe: a light&efficient engine means a sensible weight balance, and less parts to fail.

 

I thought the TS030 was a competitive car, but the toyota drivers and crew were not up to audi. I thought the toyota drivers and crew were not as good as audi, though the cars may have been harder to drive.
INSIGHT: Audi's new R18 embodies 2014 P1 rules changes - Racer.com

Definitely electronic all wheel drive is a good idea based on the rule change. The tires are also skinnier making awd more of an advantage to porsche and audi if toyota did not implement it. I think this is a good thing, and maybe it will help toyota make a better e AWD system on its hybrids.

Porsche because of the rules allowing the much bigger 8MJ (2.2kwh) storage, has decided to go with a lithium battery, and a set up very similar to their limited production 918 phev. Ofcourse 8MJ is a much smaller battery than in porshes plug in, it is bigger than those in its hybrid designs.

The new rules get rid of engine restrictions but put a fuel consumption restriction on the cars.

We don't know the hp yet, but audi gets a different fuel restriction than the gasoline cars. We don't know until they race if it is a proper level. Audi is using these races to work on their diesels. They haven't