Hybrids are done. Nobody cares anymore

Betelgeuse · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Apr 13 2006, 01:16 PM) [snapback]239192[/snapback]</div>

My point is with the masses of car buyers. They have differing needs and wants and most of them will not spend an additional $3000-4000 on a hybrid system to improve their mileage 5-15%(excluding the Prius and the Insight). I think that fact is revealed in the dissappointing hybrid sales figures(excl Prius)
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You're excluding the Prius and the Insight, but what fraction of hybrid cars sold in the US are Prii? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but I would hazard a guess that the Prius is the #1 selling hybrid car. It's fine to talk about the "hybrid industry" and "hybrid sales," but you should not treat all hybrid cars the same; in particular, you should give more weight (not less) to the best-selling hybrids.

Also, what about the HCH? The EPA numbers suggest that it gets ~50% better mileage than the plain ol' Civic. I don't know how off the EPA numbers are for the HCH, but I remember reading things suggesting that the difference between EPA and "real life" weren't as bad for the HCH as they were for the Prius.

malorn · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Apr 13 2006, 12:00 PM) [snapback]239179[/snapback]</div>

How far must sales of large SUV's fall before you are convinced?

Nate
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Have full-size SUV sales fallen that far? I think this summer will be rough on SUV sales because of gas prices.

naterprius · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Apr 13 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]239192[/snapback]</div>

Nate I agree many Prius buyers could buy anything they want, they are interested in the mpg story and or the environmental story of the Prius. Most of the Prius owners I know fall into the same category as you, they are making a statement and/or trying to make a difference.

I know that many folks would never own an escalade and that is fine too.

My point is with the masses of car buyers. They have differing needs and wants and most of them will not spend an additional $3000-4000 on a hybrid system to improve their mileage 5-15%(excluding the Prius and the Insight). I think that fact is revealed in the dissappointing hybrid sales figures(excl Prius)
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Again, malorn, you miss the point. The point is that we are the masses. We are the customers. You are doing what GM consistently did and still does; that is, anytime someone isn't interested in your product, convince yourself that "those types of buyers" are not "were never our types of buyers anyway."

You are shooting yourself in the foot. You honestly, truly believe that Prius and Hybrid buyers just want to make a statement or do something noble, and that that characteristic is only true of a select group of people, people that would never be interested in an Escalade anyway. You believe that there are these "masses" that are "normal" that would never buy a hybrid unless it is cost justified. Look around you at the "masses." It's us, the ones buying the Toyotas. You still believe that the "masses" want GM SUVs (if only they could afford them) and that fringe eccentrics buy Toyota Prii. Unless you open your eyes, this will be your fatal flaw right up until the day the bank comes to get your dealership.

Right here, on PriusChat, you can find the masses. Normal people, people with jobs, from every walk of life, even right wing nut jobs. We are your market. We are your customers. We are your buyers. Why can't you accept this?

Nate

malorn · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Betelgeuse @ Apr 13 2006, 12:28 PM) [snapback]239200[/snapback]</div>

You're excluding the Prius and the Insight, but what fraction of hybrid cars sold in the US are Prii? I honestly don't know the answer to this, but I would hazard a guess that the Prius is the #1 selling hybrid car. It's fine to talk about the "hybrid industry" and "hybrid sales," but you should not treat all hybrid cars the same; in particular, you should give more weight (not less) to the best-selling hybrids.

Also, what about the HCH? The EPA numbers suggest that it gets ~50% better mileage than the plain ol' Civic. I don't know how off the EPA numbers are for the HCH, but I remember reading things suggesting that the difference between EPA and "real life" weren't as bad for the HCH as they were for the Prius.
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I give all the weight to the Prius, it is the hybrid movement. The rest of the hybrids have been a failure from the sales standpoint. YTD the Prius has sold 22,880 units, the accord 1715, the civic 7177 and the insight 210. toyota and ford do not breakout sales of their hybrid suvs in anything i have seen. I can tell you by the financing/etc being offered that sales must not be good.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Apr 13 2006, 12:31 PM) [snapback]239203[/snapback]</div>

Again, malorn, you miss the point. The point is that we are the masses. We are the customers. You are doing what GM consistently did and still does; that is, anytime someone isn't interested in your product, convince yourself that "those types of buyers" are not "were never our types of buyers anyway."

You are shooting yourself in the foot. You honestly, truly believe that Prius and Hybrid buyers just want to make a statement or do something noble, and that that characteristic is only true of a select group of people, people that would never be interested in an Escalade anyway. You believe that there are these "masses" that are "normal" that would never buy a hybrid unless it is cost justified. Look around you at the "masses." It's us, the ones buying the Toyotas. You still believe that the "masses" want GM SUVs (if only they could afford them) and that fringe eccentrics buy Toyota Prii. Unless you open your eyes, this will be your fatal flaw right up until the day the bank comes to get your dealership.

Right here, on PriusChat, you can find the masses. Normal people, people with jobs, from every walk of life, even right wing nut jobs. We are your market. We are your customers. We are your buyers. Why can't you accept this?

Nate
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Nate you state that PC and Prius owners represent the masses? 22,880 priuses sold ytd. Toyota has sold more 4runners than Priuses and Ford sells more f150's than that over a good weekend, so dont tell me that Pc represents the masses.

On a political note, if you have a map of the counties of the US and show the Republican voting counties in red and the Democratic voting counties in blue, the map almost identical if you color domestic auto leaning counties in red and import leaning counties in blue. Believe me Toyota knows this and is trying to find a way around it. Just food for thought.

Jonnycat26 · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Apr 13 2006, 01:36 PM) [snapback]239205[/snapback]</div>

I give all the weight to the Prius, it is the hybrid movement. The rest of the hybrids have been a failure from the sales standpoint. YTD the Prius has sold 22,880 units, the accord 1715, the civic 7177 and the insight 210. toyota and ford do not breakout sales of their hybrid suvs in anything i have seen. I can tell you by the financing/etc being offered that sales must not be good.
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The prius is the hybrid movement because it's unique. I believe if there were a non-hybrid version of the Prius, that it would outsell the hybrid version. Even Toyota's copped on to this, as they've recently said it's better to come up with completely new models with no hybrid equivalent.

The HH, RX400, and Accord have bombed because they're much more expensive than the regular models, and they're just not unique.

tripp · Apr 13, 2006

malorn,

good to see you 'round again. Since you asked, here's a blurb about SUV sales:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/04/us_sales_of_ful.html

The interesting thing about it is that GM's market share is rapidly increasing in this shrinking piece of the pie.

I think that the success of the Prius vis a vis the other models shows that hybrids are still definitely a niche that appeal to people who care about.... environmently issues, money (the high mileage crowd that WILL recoup their investment quickly because they drive a tonne), security hawks. It's a politically diverse crowd and I think that it's a growing crowd. It's a moving target but we're still in the beginning of the transition.

The SUV hybrids and the accord are out of step with the population, so sales are lower in volume. The Insight is just too niche even for this crowd. However, it's sales have been amazingly consistent over time.

gilahiker · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(naterprius @ Apr 13 2006, 11:31 AM) [snapback]239203[/snapback]</div>

Again, malorn, you miss the point. The point is that we are the masses. We are the customers. You are doing what GM consistently did and still does; that is, anytime someone isn't interested in your product, convince yourself that "those types of buyers" are not "were never our types of buyers anyway."

You are shooting yourself in the foot. You honestly, truly believe that Prius and Hybrid buyers just want to make a statement or do something noble, and that that characteristic is only true of a select group of people, people that would never be interested in an Escalade anyway. You believe that there are these "masses" that are "normal" that would never buy a hybrid unless it is cost justified. Look around you at the "masses." It's us, the ones buying the Toyotas. You still believe that the "masses" want GM SUVs (if only they could afford them) and that fringe eccentrics buy Toyota Prii. Unless you open your eyes, this will be your fatal flaw right up until the day the bank comes to get your dealership.

Right here, on PriusChat, you can find the masses. Normal people, people with jobs, from every walk of life, even right wing nut jobs. We are your market. We are your customers. We are your buyers. Why can't you accept this?

Nate
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Malorn, I agree with Nate. I am one of the masses. I did own a Ford Explorer and then a GMC Jimmy. I purchased them because I am an archaeologist and I live in an area with lots of dirt roads. I traded in my GMC Jimmy for the Prius. I had enough money to buy a new Encore or a Toyota 4 Runner, but I chose to put my money into a Prius statement wise, cost wise, everything wise. I am still an archaeologist. There are still lots of dirt roads around here...but since most of my driving is done on paved roads, and long distances at that, the Prius was the only option (the Escalade was never an option...according to NM AAA they have to tend to more broken down Escalades than any other vehicle). I can rent a 4x4 or truck when I need it. Plus, after owing 2 American made vehicles and paying out the you know what for various 4x4 and other repair costs there was no way I was going back down that road...a Toyota was the only option. I also looked closely at the cost/benefit analysis of ownership given the general economy, rising fuel costs, decreasing salary increases (major problem at my univeristy), safety ratings, you name it. I did 6 months of extensive research before buying.

You may ask why, as an archaeologist, didn't I purchase a Highlander hybrid? Because it isn't a true 4x4 (and Toyota makes that perfectly clear in all their marketing) and because, even though it has HSD, the overall savings at the pump was neglible over an Encore.

So, there you have it. A reasonable, educated decision from one of the normal people, one of the masses, one of your potential customers to purchase Toyota, and a hybrid at that.

Mirza · Apr 13, 2006

Just keep ignoring the fact that these other hybrids have the best performance of their lineups, and how the Prius is Toyota's 3RD BEST SELLING MODEL in the US!

TonyPSchaefer · Apr 13, 2006

This is fun. We should do this more often.
It's kind of like watching "The Simple Life" as Paris tries to convince America that she knows how to live a normal life. Note to Paris: we're not laughing with you. And the more you argue, the harder we laugh at your attempts.

malorn · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Apr 13 2006, 12:50 PM) [snapback]239214[/snapback]</div>

malorn,

good to see you 'round again. Since you asked, here's a blurb about SUV sales:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/04/us_sales_of_ful.html

The interesting thing about it is that GM's market share is rapidly increasing in this shrinking piece of the pie.

I think that the success of the Prius vis a vis the other models shows that hybrids are still definitely a niche that appeal to people who care about.... environmently issues, money (the high mileage crowd that WILL recoup their investment quickly because they drive a tonne), security hawks. It's a politically diverse crowd and I think that it's a growing crowd. It's a moving target but we're still in the beginning of the transition.

The SUV hybrids and the accord are out of step with the population, so sales are lower in volume. The Insight is just too niche even for this crowd. However, it's sales have been amazingly consistent over time.
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Tripp, do you know how they come up with their figures? A 28% decline in sales of full-size suv's?
MArch Full-size SUV sales (2006 v 2005)
Tahoe: 16,580--13,815
Suburban: 4,780--7,672
Yukon: 5,967--6,377
Yukon XL: 2,946--4,748
Escalade: 3,955--2,722
Esc ESV: 474--1,243
Expedition: 8,220--9,489
Excursion: 250--1,461
Navigator: 2,405--2,722
H2: 1,536-2,182
h1: 30--38
QX56:--1191--1,342
Armada: 3,177--4,156
LX470: 489--613
Sequioa: 3,446--4,409

I come up with a 12% decrease.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 13 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]239220[/snapback]</div>

Just keep ignoring the fact that these other hybrids have the best performance of their lineups, and how the Prius is Toyota's 3RD BEST SELLING MODEL in the US!
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Explain 3rd best selling model in the Us to me, and where you gather that info.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gilahiker @ Apr 13 2006, 12:58 PM) [snapback]239219[/snapback]</div>

Malorn, I agree with Nate. I am one of the masses. I did own a Ford Explorer and then a GMC Jimmy. I purchased them because I am an archaeologist and I live in an area with lots of dirt roads. I traded in my GMC Jimmy for the Prius. I had enough money to buy a new Encore or a Toyota 4 Runner, but I chose to put my money into a Prius statement wise, cost wise, everything wise. I am still an archaeologist. There are still lots of dirt roads around here...but since most of my driving is done on paved roads, and long distances at that, the Prius was the only option (the Escalade was never an option...according to NM AAA they have to tend to more broken down Escalades than any other vehicle). I can rent a 4x4 or truck when I need it. Plus, after owing 2 American made vehicles and paying out the you know what for various 4x4 and other repair costs there was no way I was going back down that road...a Toyota was the only option. I also looked closely at the cost/benefit analysis of ownership given the general economy, rising fuel costs, decreasing salary increases (major problem at my univeristy), safety ratings, you name it. I did 6 months of extensive research before buying.

You may ask why, as an archaeologist, didn't I purchase a Highlander hybrid? Because it isn't a true 4x4 (and Toyota makes that perfectly clear in all their marketing) and because, even though it has HSD, the overall savings at the pump was neglible over an Encore.

So, there you have it. A reasonable, educated decision from one of the normal people, one of the masses, one of your potential customers to purchase Toyota, and a hybrid at that.
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You do sound like one of the masses. My point is that Prius owners as a whole are far from the average slice of Americana, both in numbers and in demographics.

How is the Prius the third best selling model in the US, Is that Toyota model or model in general?

Salsawonder · Apr 13, 2006

The only reason that GM sales are so good with Tahoe and Ford with the F150's is that they are selling to the short sighted. They cut their prices, scream: sale, sale sale and low financing. People buy in cause it is so cheap out the door but then they can barely afford repairs and gas.

Toyota doesn't advertise the Prius in normal terms. Neither does Honda or Ford. These cars recieve no special financing (at least anywhere I have been). And still people are buying, waiting. I smile everytime I pass a gas station. I laugh hysterically at the people driving their behemoths and lamenting their lean purses.

As gilahiker mentioned, you can rent a vehicle for when you need something bigger or for off road, you don't need to tie yourself down with that everyday.

Look ahead, educate yourself.

Mirza · Apr 13, 2006

Search our news forum and you will find it, I'm not going to waste my time proving a proven fact. That's for Toyota models - the 1st and 2nd top selling Toyota models are the Camry and Corolla ~ not sure which one is 2nd/1st.

Mystery Squid · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Salsawonder @ Apr 13 2006, 02:19 PM) [snapback]239236[/snapback]</div>

The only reason that GM sales are so good with Tahoe and Ford with the F150's is that they are selling to the short sighted.[/b]
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Oh please... THAT is a very IGNORANT statement. God forbid someone just happens to like trucks for the sake of liking trucks...

malorn · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Salsawonder @ Apr 13 2006, 01:19 PM) [snapback]239236[/snapback]</div>

The only reason that GM sales are so good with Tahoe and Ford with the F150's is that they are selling to the short sighted.

Look ahead, educate yourself.
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i think you would fall into the category of thinking you are "elite". You are not short-sighted? How does driving a Prius make you visionary?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 13 2006, 01:21 PM) [snapback]239240[/snapback]</div>

Search our news forum and you will find it, I'm not going to waste my time proving a proven fact. That's for Toyota models - the 1st and 2nd top selling Toyota models are the Camry and Corolla ~ not sure which one is 2nd/1st.
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March Sales for Toyota:

Camry: 38,981
Corolla: 20,727
Sienna: 16,287
Tacoma: 15,662
RAV4: 13,494
Tundra: 11,800
Highlander: 11,622
4Runner: 10,800
Matrix: 11,585
Avalon: 8,697
PRIUS: 7,922

It did outsell the Yaris, the Sequoia, and the FJ Cruiser. I'm glad you won't waste any more time with proven facts. You crack me up. do you have any othe rauto industry facts for me? I'm ready.

Mirza · Apr 13, 2006

Before you get cocky and mentally orgasm yourself, I'm finding your statistics right now.

malorn · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mirza @ Apr 13 2006, 01:34 PM) [snapback]239257[/snapback]</div>

Before you get cocky and mentally orgasm yourself, I'm finding your statistics right now.
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Heres a link:

http://www.autonews.com/assets/PDF/CA574447.PDF

Mirza · Apr 13, 2006

Here's your first link:

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=4655&hl=

gilahiker · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Apr 13 2006, 12:12 PM) [snapback]239226[/snapback]</div>

You do sound like one of the masses. My point is that Prius owners as a whole are far from the average slice of Americana, both in numbers and in demographics.
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Thanks, I think, although truly I did refer to myself as one of the masses. However, if you asked the large number of Prius owners in my small town of 10,000 folks (we must have, at least 30 to 35 now) you would probably find that the majority of them are the masses (I do live in rural NM, lots of ranchers, miners, plus enviros and a large art community). They are just making a very conscious, educated decision given their needs and economics.

On a side note, in our small town the local dealership has sold 6 Highland Hybrids over new GMC/Toyota trucks (they sell Toyota, GMC and some others). The folks that purchased those HiHy decided that even though their gas mileage would not necessarily increase over their current SUV the fact that the HiHy has HSD meant they were doing their part to decrease emissions. A dear friend, who is an archaeologist and prefers a larger vehicle although she rarely uses the 4x4 for work, is one of those that traded in her regular Highlander for a Limited 4x4 HiHy because of the HSD. Her husband, also one of the masses and a blue collar worker, is waiting for the Toyota Tundra Hybrid to come out simply because of the HSD (oh, and neither one of them has children).

Mirza · Apr 13, 2006

A cool article while I'm searching the links to show you....

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=8619&hl=

malorn · Apr 13, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gilahiker @ Apr 13 2006, 01:37 PM) [snapback]239267[/snapback]</div>

Thanks, I think, although truly I did refer to myself as one of the masses. However, if you asked the large number of Prius owners in my small town of 10,000 folks (we must have, at least 30 to 35 now) you would probably find that the majority of them are the masses (I do live in rural NM, lots of ranchers, miners, plus enviros and a large art community). They are just making a very conscious, educated decision given their needs and economics.

On a side note, in our small town the local dealership has sold 6 Highland Hybrids over new GMC/Toyota trucks (they sell Toyota, GMC and some others). The folks that purchased those HiHy decided that even though their gas mileage would not necessarily increase over their current SUV the fact that the HiHy has HSD meant they were doing their part to decrease emissions. A dear friend, who is an archaeologist and prefers a larger vehicle although she rarely uses the 4x4 for work, is one of those that traded in her regular Highlander for a Limited 4x4 HiHy because of the HSD. Her husband, also one of the masses and a blue collar worker, is waiting for the Toyota Tundra Hybrid to come out simply because of the HSD (oh, and neither one of them has children).
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If there are really 30-35 priuses in your community of 10000, then your Prius penetration would be far greater than the national average. That would make sense, with a large enviro and art community.

Hybrids are done. Nobody cares anymore

Betelgeuse Active Member

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tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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Hybrids are done. Nobody cares anymore

Betelgeuse Active Member

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tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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