Hybrids don't make financial sense

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Troy Heagy, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    Most if not all people do judge people by past actions, esp. if there is a pattern.

    As I tried to say in my last post - I'd prefer not to add to this thread, so please don't respond to my posts as this thread is not about me.
     
  2. Tony D

    Tony D Active Member

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    So, is it fair to say that Troy is right and that "Hybrids don't make financial sense".......or did I get the wrong end of the stick?

    If he is right, I'll go straight out an buy a nice low mileage used VW Lupo 3L (for less than €5k). . . if you don;t know what it is, Google it! They're a great "little" car
     
  3. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    The answer to your question: Yes and no.

    What constitutes "financial sense"? Is it purely lifetime cost per mile of ownership? Is it value for the money? If the latter, do intangibles like the fun factor of owning advanced technology and occasionally going into electric mode count? What about differential capabilities? The Prius, for example, has an enormous amount of flexible cargo space for its overall size, but is not rated for towing. Then, what about environmental factors? Does the SULEV rating affect the financial sensibility? I.e. does it make "financial sense" to pay a bit extra in order to reduce your carbon footprint? To reduce your support of oil exporting countries that act against our national interests?

    Then there is the matter of your own driving habits: Do you need to maintain two cars because your hybrid commuter car cannot tow your boat to the lake, or pull your trailer for your once-a-year vacation trip? And how many miles do you put on your car every year? Do you drive in conditions that wear out a car faster? Do you take impeccable care of your car so it lasts for 300,000 miles?

    It would appear from above posts that the Prius actually costs less per mile overall if you put enough miles on it and drive conservatively enough to exceed the average mpg ratings. My Prius makes financial sense to me because it is worth the extra money to me to consume less gasoline, even though I've never put more than ten thousand miles on a car in a year, and even though I now drive it about one thousand miles a year, since my once-a-year trip to Canada and the occasional trip to the airport are all I use it for. (The Tesla is my daily driver.)

    The answer to your question depends on what factors are worth money to you and how much you drive the car.
     
  4. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Well that's because greenercars.org uses the *commonly available fuel* when they do their calculations. i.e. What the average Joe & Jill Smith will be using. For gasoline cars they assume they are running on gasoline, not E85 (which would be cleaner). And the same for EVs where they assume most users are plugging in to a wall, and using the U.S. mix of electricity (mostly coal, then CNG, and a small bit of hydro & nuclear).

    The end result is that the Prius and EV cars end-up being about equal in cleanliness/ranking. BTW the greenercars website rates the Civic GX (CNG) as the absolute cleanest car.

    Also greenercars is an Environmental website. By attacking them as "wrong" or "spreading FUD" it's like attacking your own friends & colleagues. Which is dumb. (Infighting with people who share your same cause/goal is a foolish thing to do.)
     
  5. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Yeah I don't regret any car I ever bought, except the first one my parents gave me (Dodge Omni... ugly red interior). I know a lot of Prius owners automatically say "Honda insights are junk & Troy was stupid to buy one," but I've owned three of them, and I love getting 80-90 mpg life average. Honda's "lean burn" engine was a wonderful invention (burns 1/3rd less gas).

    What I DO regret is seeing people wasting money. There's no doubt a Prius or other hybrid will "save gas money" but they won't do anything for your overall bank savings...... not as long as there are cheaper alternatives like a $12,000 Nissan Versa or $13,000 Fiesta or $14,000 Fit or $15,000 Yaris.

    Saving five to fifteen thousand upfront (plus interest & less sales tax) is how a car shopper avoids wasting their hard-earned cash. IMHO
     
  6. Tony D

    Tony D Active Member

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    You still refuse to compare cars on a like for like basis! You are again comparing Mickey Mouse little cars that do not compare to a Prius or even an Insight

    Should we all buy used Dacia Sanderos diesels for less than €10k and save a fortune?

    Thankfully for the global economy not everyone is like you
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There is no outlet in the country that gets electricity generated by an average mix of sources. My electric is mostly nuclear, same with my parents, and Daniel's is all hydro.

    If emissions is a concern, a potential plug in buyer needs to research what their supply is. If it isn't as clean as they wish, they can look into buying greener electric, or even installing their own solar or wind power. There is even home fuel cell power supplies for those that think natural gas is a cleaner option and don't have it on their grid. 39% of EV owners in California have installed solar. Tesla is putting up solar along with their super charger stations.

    The numbers used for that average grid mix are out of date. The newest data used by it on the fueleconomy.gov website is from 2009. Coal use has dropped since then. The thing with using electricity is that a car put on the road today will get cleaner with the grid. A gasoline or diesel car will get dirtier as the emission control equipment wears. The gasoline itself will get dirtier as we have to use more and more hard to get crude.

    So an electric will get cleaner. If not, the owner has options to actually making their own clean electricity. The gasser will get dirtier, and the owner is stuck pumping in whatever is at the pump.
     
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  8. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    The 'average grid' argument is a logical fallacy because it fails to consider that EVs increase the amount of electricity consumed.

    I have explained the fallacy in detail ad nauseum and will not repeat myself here. A quick search should be enough for anyone interested. Chogan eventually realized he was arguing the fallacy and backed off some 6 months ago.
     
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  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    But reduces gasoline consumed. There is no free lunch.
     
  10. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    The average Joe & Jill do not buy Tesla cars. People who are concerned about the environment or who admire cutting edge technology buy Tesla cars, and these people are far more likely to be using solar or wind power, either at their own site, or through the programs many utilities offer where customers can pay a bit more for sustainable, green energy.


    I really doubt that! The Honda Insight is an excellent car that is very efficient. Its technology is less sophisticated than the Prius, but nobody on this site is going to call it junk or say you were stupid to buy one.

    On come on, get real: "Wasting" money is a subjective concept. Is it a waste of money to eat in a restaurant? You can eat more cheaply at home, but some people enjoy eating in a restaurant. Is it s waste of money to take a vacation? You could stay home and save that money. But a well-planned vacation can be fun. Is it a waste of money to buy kiwifruit instead of apples? Some people enjoy the variety.

    Nearly everything we buy could be considered a waste of money, since most of it is not strictly necessary for basic survival. Most people who have some disposable income after necessities spend it on things they enjoy. And most people buy the car that they enjoy, not the car that provides the cheapest transportation. Maybe to you my Tesla Roadster was a waste of money, but I wanted an electric car, and the Roadster is electric, and by my criteria, it's the coolest car on the road. It's not a waste of money to me because it gives me pleasure to drive it.

    So get off your high horse about other people wasting money and recognize that if you are not giving every spare penny you have to the poor, you are "wasting" money just the same as someone who buys a hybrid even if it's not the most economical transportation for their uses.
     
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  11. DtEW

    DtEW Active Member

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    I couldn't care less about anybody else wasting their money, esp. when their "wasted money" gives rise to trickle-down technologies that I benefit from, or support of an overall market that I too benefit from.

    I do know quite a lot of people (almost always on the Internet) who show the greatest passion going around telling others what is "the best" (usually what they have or want) and what is "a waste" (usually what the audience has or want) for reasons they will always somehow frame as being altruistic.

    I've seen this in other car forums.
    I've seen this in camera forums.
    I've seen this in computer forums.

    The simplistic interpretation of their actions is "trolling," i.e. trying to get a rise out of people. Having battled with them long, hard, dirty, and viciously at times, I have come to the belief that there is something more than that. I think these folks are making as much of an argument to themselves as they are to others, trying to rationalize their own preferences loudly, and hoping to gain some sort of external support for their internal uncertainty and insecurity. So they constantly start battles that they hope to win. Because to let it be still means to lose.

    Well-adjusted people make choices for themselves to fit their own needs, and understand that others may have different priorities to enable different choices. Or they just simply don't care. Heck, life is full enough as-is.

    People insecure at their core dictate to others what are the "right" choices, because they're really trying to convince themselves, and failing at that. They externalize their inner struggle, and they keep doing it because otherwise it eats away at them.
     
  12. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    Time is money. You have spent over a decade wasting people's time (money.)

    You can spend several more decades saying I'm wasting money, but the results over the last 13 years/220,000 miles on my 2000 Honda Insight totally disagrees with you.
     
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  13. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    This is an internet forum. I have opinions about threads, not people.
     
  14. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Why do you think it is any of your business how people spend their money ?

    If someone asks your opinion what car to buy to save the most money, then by all means give it. Until then stfu. Or if you simply cannot restrain yourself, state your opinion once and then STFU.
     
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  15. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    Going out for a nice dinner where someone waits on you and you pay the bill and walk away is also a financial loss compared to staying home, fixing a bowl of soup, spending time in the kitchen doing dishes then it's time for bed no time to relax and enjoy the evening... Which is more valuable?

    It's important to most to enjoy as feel good about their car, as for me I would rather pay Toyota that Exxon pretty simple, your going to pay somebody.

    _____________________________________
    Alan
     
  16. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Now I understand why you are down on hybrids. You have been buying crap.
     
  17. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    :D:D:D:D:D:D

    Thems fighen words!

    I have 3 prius and hybrid Avalon...

    But I do have a Honda motor on my zero turn.. I couldn't find a hybrid :D

    _____________________________________
    Alan
     
  18. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ I'm skeptical he's owned three Insights.

    The one I drive has held together pretty well for 220,000 miles.
     
  19. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    Me too. He is either a liar or is the last person to listen to for car buying advice.
     
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  20. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    ^ I do consider the source.

    Is the OP Elon Musk or Ed Begley Jr? Is it at least Bob Lutz? I pay attention to them when they have something to say.

    Not only is the OP not a well-known person in alternative cars, he has not made himself known! What do you know about him or his cars? Anonymity makes it easier for him to argue indefinitely for years, but he forfeits any credibility.
     
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