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Hybrids making EMF-sensitive people sick?

Discussion in 'EV (Electric Vehicle) Discussion' started by raholco, Jun 20, 2010.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Sudbury is a pattern we find in hybrid skeptics, often Libertarians.
    What is the make and model of her "EMF meter?"

    There is a condition called "Hysterical Paralysis" in which the patient experiences symptoms with 'no known neurologic cause.' I have no doubt that such symptoms extend to headaches:
    But of course, I'm not a physician but an engineer. She may truly be a biological EMF detector and as such needs to be studied . . . perhaps in a hospital environment. Yes, a University research institution:
    [​IMG]
    I'm not saying she is nuts but rather skills like hers need to be quantified. For example, are there particular frequencies that affect her more than others?

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I would love to, as I suspect her of being a shill, but we have no more scientific proof she is a shill than she has that EMF causes her headaches.

    I would love to give her an 'EMF meter' that is remote controllable to see if she is claiming headaches she does not have, (or self suggesting headaches she does have, unrelated to EMF) but sadly, she is not doing a valid test, it is a just publicity stunt, so we can't do 'science' on her claims in a internet forum. The best we can do is point out all the ways it CAN be wrong, and why it is bad science.
     
  3. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    How so? Bob suggested running additional tests with the subject, not other people. There are no additional people to support the "...everyone responds in the same way" comment. Only one person.

    Scientific method suggests running additional tests on the subject. Ideally they would be double-blind, meaning that neither the subject or the observer would know whether fields were present. She would be presented with a number of identical trials, each differing by the amount and type of EMF exposure. If she is really susceptible to EMF a correlation would emerge.

    Tom
     
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  4. HolyPotato

    HolyPotato Junior Member

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    Well, the Sudbury story is easy to understand, and has been debunked many times... yet she got it wrong. If she can't do the research on that topic, what hope do we have of her finding good information on EMFs and their biological effects, a highly controversial field where even the leading scientists can't agree on what the story is.

    And her headaches are a personal experience, but we can't even say that the EMF readings are because she didn't give enough information to indicate that she knew how to use the meter properly (e.g., no mention of frequency, just field strength). She could be essentially looking at a random number generator for all we know, and found a chance correlation.

    I contacted Kent Shadwick (quoted in the NYT article from 2008) when it was first released and asked him for his raw measurements, since he seemed to be the only one in that article that actually took steps to do a good measurement. Unfortunately he wouldn't share.

    Then in 2009 I saw a presentation by G. Schmid explaining their testing procedure of hybrids and regular cars, and these were my notes from that presentation (I haven't checked yet to see if they've published their measurements):

    In the backseat, right above the battery they were able to measure a slight increase. So in the driver's position, there should be negligible difference between a hybrid and a regular car in terms of EMF, yet she claims to have found one. Personally, I'll trust the Austrian engineering team's measurements.

    Yep. Unfortunately most people who claim to be affected by EMFs can't actually tell when they're on when tested double-blind.

    I love my new Prius tonnes, but the placement of the rearview mirror is horribly low. Maybe she kept repeatedly ducking her head down to look under/around the stupid thing to check for pedestrians on her right side, and gave herself headaches that way? Maybe she needs constant noise, and the intermittent silence of the engine turning off gave her headaches? Maybe she was under stress from buying a new car, or was facing a publication deadline at the time, and the car had nothing to do with it? Maybe the rear spoiler was blocking the headlights of cars behind her to some extent, and the flashing on/off of lights in her peripheral vision gave her headaches? Maybe she hates digital speedometers?

    There are dozens or hundreds of potential reasons. For herself, she got rid of the car, and the headaches stopped, and that's as much explanation as she needs for her own self. The problem is solved. Where I step in and get onery is when she starts pointing the finger at something she doesn't understand, and unjustly scares people away from something that can help them and the planet. The last thing the general public needs is more irrational fear.


    But there's also a lot of very bad information out there about EMFs, and it does nobody justice to propogate scare science (check out the comments that have since come up on her page -- she now insinuates the Prius caused a brain tumour in someone!). We know for a fact that hybrids are a valuable way for people to save gas and money in meeting their transportation needs without any sacrifices (though of course there are even greener ways involving small sacrifices in range and/or sweat). And there seems to be an immense commercial interest working against them. It does no good to plant unfounded fears about this technology in the lay public. Let them focus on cellphones and wifi if they want to worry about something. :)
     
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  5. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I used to do EMF/EMI compliance testing for a living, around 15 years ago. This story makes me giggle
     
  6. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    My girlfriend used to own a smart car, whenever i drove it i got a pain in my hip! i'd never driven a car with a three cylinder engine before - but i think the different vibration pattern from the engine caused my hip pain! it went away when she swapped to a mondeo! PROOF!
     
  7. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

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    The strength of the field at the Earth's surface ranges from less than 30 microteslas (0.3 gauss) in an area including most of South America and South Africa to over 60 microteslas (0.6 gauss) around the magnetic poles in northern Canada and south of Australia, and in part of Siberia.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    10 to 1 ... she gets headaches around CFL's too.

    .
     
  9. Focus EV

    Focus EV New Member

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    I know this thread is ancient at this point, but I am a new owner of a plug in Electric Vehicle (Ford Focus) and found that I have this same sensitivity. I was so delighted to get an EV, really happy to be opting out of the gasoline world and its contribution to climate change and other environmental ills. I LOVED my new (to me) electric car and started planning how I would accomodate its more limited range in order to do my part for the planet. I drove the car for a few weeks and put around 300 miles on it- delighted with the handling, the quiet- the touch screen- the nav system. Then I started noticing body aches and headaches every time I drove the car. I began my research on health effects and stumbled on to sites that discuss EMF sensitivity. I haven't bothered to get a meter. I am over 60 and have never had headaches nor have I ever had this type of experience driving a car. I do practice daily Qigong and have developed a certain sensitivity as a result so I suspect I may be one of those canaries in this particular coal mine. Just thought I'd add my two cents in case any one is still curious... Meanwhile, anyone want a good deal on a 2013 Ford Focus electric plug in? Only 19,000 miles. All leather interior. Touch screen. Navigation system... back up camera... all the bells and whistles. Am guessing that the people on this site are not worried about the EMFs. -MJ
     
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  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    What have you done to rule out chemical sensitivities? Seating posture issues? Noise issues? (Sounds that trigger headaches for me include the very low frequency rumble from side windows left open at highway speed. Other folks have different ear issues, and Prius has relatively little sound insulation.) Low grade motion sickness from the cheap suspension? Other problems?

    EMF sensitivities remain hypothetical, while all of the above issues are well known to exist. I have several of them, though not in my Prius.
     
    #30 fuzzy1, Oct 11, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2016
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'll add that the seats in the Matrix and Gen2 Prius were fine until I had been driving it them for a week or so.
     
  12. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    Thank you for the report. Perhaps if more people practiced Qigong we'd have better data on low level sensitivities.
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    PriusChat has a pretty good search function and we've discussed this many times in the past. In engineering, we are fond of doing an A-B-A test:
    • A - rent or borrow an equivalent car (Enterpise) for a week and record symptoms.
    • B - go back to problem car for a week and record symptoms
    • A - do first test again
    As soon as you confirm it is the car, contact a lawyer and start a class-action suit.

    Good Luck,
    Bob Wilson
     
  14. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    I don't think Focus EV is looking for advise on how to proceed. She's already determined that something about the EV causes her problems, and the solution has been to change vehicles. She's just notifying us that she thinks the problem is EMF like has already been discussed in this thread.

    As for the effects of EMF, I'd like to recommend the book Dirty Electricity, Electrification and the Diseases of Civilization by Samuel Milham, MD, MPH. It seems that our problems with EMF started back with electrification in the early 1900's.

    If we can identify the characteristics of EMF interference with biological systems, then perhaps there are ways to mitigate that interference. Stomping on anyone who reports a problem isn't invoking science, it's using dogma to shut them up.
     
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  15. yups

    yups Junior Member

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    Just sayin, driving my 06 prius sets off pretty intense ULQ pain. same side as the HV cable, drivers side. It will cease when I switch to another vehicle ie avalon or f150.
     
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  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and you've been driving it like that for 10 years?(n)
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I've long known that the Prius is not for everyone. My recommendation, ditch the car as quickly as possible and find another ride.

    There is no known EMI or other scientific instrument that can detect what causes "intense ULQ." Such instrumentation just doesn't exist. So if you feel "intense ULQ," do the right thing and let someone less sensitive have a chance to buy that car.

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. WilDavis

    WilDavis Senior Member

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    Surely the answer to this might be to wear a HazMat suit made of Kevlar (or some other conducting material) or at the very least, a tin-hat?
     
  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    That is unfair. The EMI sensitive people are unique in our species. That they have yet to find an empirical instrument that can predict their maladies ... there in lies is a Nobel Prize.

    Hummm, perhaps we can apply for a National Science Foundation grant to study the problem of people who suffer from a malady that has no other empirical detector. Finding the solution is surely worth say, $1M for a 5 year study. I must get back to work writing the proposal.

    Bob Wilson
     
  20. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I did a medical google
    ULQ
    Abbreviation for upper left quadrant (of mouth)

    I am not clear how intense applies
     
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