Hydrogen fueling slower than Tesla EV supercharger (fuel cell electric)

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Troy Heagy, Sep 17, 2014.

  1. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    One week of owning a hydrogen-electric fuel cell vehicle, and I am already annoyed. ;) It isn't the car's fault but the supplier of the H2. (So much for CARB's requirement of 15 minutes or less fueling to earn ZEV credits.) A Tesla EV can be recharged to 80% in just 30 minutes. Stop, recharge, drive away (and then repeat as necessary).

    - My H2 EV has not been so quick. First time I had to wait 30 minutes for the station to "cool off" before it would proceed.

    - Next time (5am) I did it in about 10 minutes. Okay good.

    - I returned at 11 am, and discovered someone waiting. I sat and watched as the person connected the hose. Disconnected. Reconnected. Disconnected. Then she asked me for help. (I walked her through the convoluted menu system.) She then wasted 5 minutes trying to connect a communication dongle. Followed by 10 minutes fueling. And at the end she could not detach the hose from her car. As she was leaving she said, "That took me 50 minutes!"

    - And once again the station was overheated, so I had to wait 80 minutes before I finally was able to start fueling! Plus 10 for the actual event. I had a restaurant reservation for 12 but never arrived until 2:30.

    - Plus the car isn't even full. The station only gives me 85% of maximum capacity.

    Bottom Line:

    - I wasted 40 + 10 + 50 + 90 == 190 minutes for three fueling visits.
    - I'm only getting 85% of a charge of hydrogen.
    - The Tesla EV would be only 120 minutes given identical situations.
    ;) :) :D
     
    #1 Troy Heagy, Sep 17, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2014
  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    What's the reason? Should I infer something (politics) has allowed less-than-ready-for-prime-time vendors to take their shot at H2 refueling?
     
  3. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    The other station 5 miles away is "down" and has been down for two weeks. Otherwise I would try it instead of the overheating station. My understanding is all the stations are owned by the government, so they work about as well as the DMV
     
  4. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    If this is typical daily driving, you most likely wouldn't have wasted any time in the Tesla as it would have charged up at home while you were sleeping.

    How's the FE in your new fuel cell?
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I thought they were built by private companies, with funding from the government. Perhaps when the other one near you is back up it will work better?
    Any idea how recently the one you are using was built?

    Early in any new technology there will be stumbles. Hopefully it will be ironed out quickly for you.
     
  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Sounds like an older station. One from before 10k psi fuel tanks were available, and it can only fill to 7k or 8k psi of the previous standard. Plus, if it is compressing the gas while filling the tank, the gas could be going in hot. Once cooled back to ambient, the tank won't be as filled as when topped off.

    Hydrogen advocates like presenting refueling will be as quick as filling up with gasoline or diesel. This glosses over the realities of handling high pressure gases. In a gasoline station, a pump moves the fuel from the station tank to a car's. The flow rate might slow if the station gets really busy or the fluid level gets low in the station tank, but it will keep the gas flowing. The only time it can't fill a car is if the pump isn't working or the atation is out of gas.

    With gas gases, the pump isn't pulling the fuel out of the storage tank, but compressing it into it. It is just like an air compressor for pneumatic tools. A pump fills a tank with enough air to produce a high pressure. When a valve is opened, the high pressure air rushes out, spinning a turbine to power a toll or to fill a tire. The pump turns on to keep air compressed in the tank to maintain a high pressure differential with the environment outside. If the pump can't keep the pressure up because there is too air being drawn out or the tank is too small, the compressor won't be able to power tools, and you will have to wait for the tank to fill back up.

    It is the same with hydrogen or CNG. When the storage tank of pressurized fuel runs low, the compressor needs to recharge it by pumping in more gas. Hydrogen stations have a car per day rating dictated by the compressor system and pressurized tank size because of the systems nature of emptying and repressurizing. If the cars come in to refuel evenly spaced out over a day, there should be no problem. If the cars come in bunch and drain the tank, the next person may have to wait for the system to reach a minimum pressure. The filling process will be slower, and likely won't completely fill the car's tank, because the pressure differential between the station and car tank isn't high enough.

    In short, a gasoline station can keep refilling cars at a quick rate as long as fuel is kept in its tank. Refueling with hydrogen can be as short as refueling with gasoline, if the station's system doesn't get overwhelmed. It is a bottleneck independent of the hydrogen supply at the station.
     
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  7. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Which is, of course, what happens in the real world with gasoline stations and ICE cars.
     
  8. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    +1 on this question.

    Going from your earlier post, you have the Mercedes B-class? Didn't realize those were available already.

    Can you share what H2 stations you're using? Was the other gal trying to fuel up also driving a B-class or the Hyundai? Or something else?
     
  9. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    Pics or it didn't happen.
     
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  10. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Okay Doubting Thomas. ;) :) :D MPGe is about 60 when doing 70 miles/hour. I have had it as high as 80 MPGe if I drive the minimum allowed speed on the interstate.

    I am using the University of California station in Irvine. The two women I've met were driving a Toyota FCV (experimental compact SUV) and a Hyundai Tucson. In both cases their usage of the station made it overheat, so I had to wait for the station to cool down to 14 F before fueling.
     
    #10 Troy Heagy, Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
  11. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    I meant pics of the FCV ride :p
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Yes we need pics of this FCV car otherwise we are skeptics.
    I assume you mean MPGh miles per equiv. gallon H2 ...impressive though (assuming I am not taking the bait hook line and sinker).
     
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  13. Chuck.

    Chuck. Former Honda Enzyte Driver

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    That does not mean he can't borrow someone else's picture and claim it was his like some of his 100 mpg trips he claimed at InsightCentral.net.

    I mean, isn't it incredible with his accounts of this FCV, yet he complains about price on other vehicles, no hypermiling articles on his Insight or Prius, nobody has met him at a meetup? ;)

    A fiction section needs to be set up and send this and Troy Heagy's other threads there.
     
    #13 Chuck., Sep 22, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2014
  14. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Yes we need to see pic with sign in the window "Troy's H2 FCV for the Doubting Thomas's"
     
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  15. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    MPGe == miles/gallon equivalent. There is no such thing as MPGh
     
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  16. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Anybody live near Santa Ana CA? I'll not only introduce you to my FCV, but also let you drive it down the interstate. We can meet at a "safe" location like Costco (off Tustin Ranch road).
     
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  17. PriusC_Commuter

    PriusC_Commuter Active Member

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    I'll take you up on that offer. I'm not a disbeliever, I just really want to see one in action with my own two eyes lol. We could meet at that Costco and you could show me how you fill it up at the UCI station. Then I'll report back for everyone to hear.

    I've seen three FCVs in the wild: a Mercedes on the 405, the GM one twice in the past month on the 405, and most recently today the Toyota highlander getting off the 91 in front of me.
     
  18. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    Email electrictroy at gmail to arrange a visit to see the FCV. For the other Doubting Thomases here is my salesguy who you can "in-terror-gate" and harass if you still lack faith. If you can't see the photos, just goto my facebook & view them Doubting Thomases

    From: Thomas Carnevale <[email protected]>
    Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 20:56:55 +0000
    Hello Troy,
    Just a few images of your new F-Cell. We will park it in a safe space until you come in. Have a great weekend!
    Thomas Carnevale
    Mercedes-Benz Sales Representative

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    #18 Troy Heagy, Sep 24, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2014
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  19. fotomoto

    fotomoto Senior Member

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    Overall form factor reminds me on my CMax. Are you going to leave the "F-Cell" stickers on? Early Volts had a similar but larger "Volt" on them too.
     
  20. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ...looks real to me...you know our motto here at PriusChat: Pics or it Didn't Happen
    OK Troy has uploaded pics...nice car white HOV stickers...CA Tags
    I already "liked" Troy's orig post when he said he bought it on another thread, so I've committed 2 likes on this vechile already...
     
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